I see a real change in the atheist attitude toward arguments fo God. It's ironic because apologists say to each other in private all the time that they never seem to really notice how often we prove the case for an argument, that it seems to make no dent in their thinking that we always win the arguments, they go right on insisting that we never do and that there is no evidence. It' clear that most God arguments are usually defended well, except in cases where the apologist didn't do his homework, which happens a lot. But in any argument where the apologist knows his stuff, the arguments almost always holds up and danceable. But atheists never seem to notice.
Despite their denials I think atheists do no notice. That conclusion is mad pretty obvious by the changes I see taking place in their attitudes. Years ago (1999) when I started doing this most atheists had a much more open attitude toward discussion of God arguments. There were some hot head thugs like Cygnus who was a cutting edge hate zombie, but for the most part atheists such Dan the Atheist on CARM seemed open and ready to discuss any argument. They didn't poison the well or beg the question that much. Their main strategy in those days was to just insist that we don't have direct evidence so it's not "proof."
Over these past eleven years or so there have been a lot of water under bridge. Atheists went through an extreme radicalization beginning in 2004, where they all began to sound like Cygnus (I honestly can't remember if he spelled that with a Y or not). In that period they got much more radical about God arguments, charging "there's no proof for your God." They always said that but they got more adamant about it. Now they have come to the point where they basically just refuse to argue.
That's the new attitudes I see. Whereas in the past all one had to do was put up a God argument and he would get 20 or so answers, even if they weren't very good. Now I put one up on carm I get no answers. There are a few little comments but they just amount to badmouthing. The new attitude seems to be one of just shut down the discussion. There can't be any proof for God no matter what the apologist says it just isn't possible so don't even bother thinking about it. Don't try to examine their arguments, just ignore them up front.
It's a dead give away what's going on once one becomes aware of the new discoveries made in anti-atheist studies. That awareness can be summed up:
(1) Atheism is a hate group
(2) Its' a cult
(3) it's brain washing
(4) it's an ideology one is socialized (brain washed) into
(5) their real motivation and the reason they come to message boards is the emotional charge they get from mocking and ridiculing those who disagree with the ideology; this makes them feel superior and that's what they really want. It has nothing to do with intellectualism or thinking.
In this light God arguments are just a barrier to be gotten around,not significant questions to be answered. The way they deal with a God argument is merely to compare it to their one and only standard of true knowledge "does it stack up to the atheist ideology of scientisim" Of course not. so therefore it can't be true so just don't bother with it.
But this attitude tells me that they know they can't answer God arguments. They know the arguments have bee proved and there's nothing they can do. So they had to change the strategy and stop arguing the arguments and start ridiculing them but in such a way that their brain washed lackeys will not go to the trouble to actually learn about them.
That effectively takes away the effectiveness of all apologetic. At the same time however if you understand it it's a frank admission that we are right. The refusal to participate in arguments for God is a frank admission that they really know there is evidence for God that they can't answer.
8 comments:
Hi. Atheists ignore your arguments because they are the same arguments that we've been hearing since we started arguing. Atheists are generally empiricists, that is, we believe things only if they can be quantified and tested. We remain sceptical (but not closed to) everything else. If you want us to believe then you're going to have to demonstrate God in a way that we can experience through our senses in some form of repeatable and verifiable experiment. If you can't do that then don't even bother, because yes, we will ignore you.
I take umbrage with your statement that atheism is a cult of brainwashed people. If anything, I believe it's exactly opposite. I was not indoctrinated into atheism. It was a position I came to on my own through much thought, study, and contemplation. Religion on the other hand was taught to me from birth. Baptized at age 1, I was taken to church nearly every Sunday, including Catholic school through 6th grade. I was taught and preached to about God before I could even read or write. I was Catholic because my parents were Catholic. They were Catholic because their parents were Catholic. That to me sounds more like brainwashing cult behavior. I don't know many other atheists. I don't attend weekly meetings to affirm my disbelief in a Creator. In fact, aside from occasionally coming upon something like this and feeling compelled to say something, I hardly even think about my not believing in your God.
Hi. Atheists ignore your arguments because they are the same arguments that we've been hearing since we started arguing. Atheists are generally empiricists, that is, we believe things only if they can be quantified and tested. We remain sceptical (but not closed to) everything else. If you want us to believe then you're going to have to demonstrate God in a way that we can experience through our senses in some form of repeatable and verifiable experiment. If you can't do that then don't even bother, because yes, we will ignore you.
October 9, 2009 7:13 PM
atheists ignore my arguments because they don't understand them and because they get their asses kicked when thy argue with me.
I take umbrage with your statement that atheism is a cult of brainwashed people.
I do apologize for making a blanket statement. I am usually careful enough to qualify it but sometimes slip up. There is a segment of atheist community that I would describe that way but not all.
If anything, I believe it's exactly opposite. I was not indoctrinated into atheism. It was a position I came to on my own through much thought, study, and contemplation. Religion on the other hand was taught to me from birth. Baptized at age 1, I was taken to church nearly every Sunday, including Catholic school through 6th grade. I was taught and preached to about God before I could even read or write. I was Catholic because my parents were Catholic. They were Catholic because their parents were Catholic. That to me sounds more like brainwashing cult behavior. I don't know many other atheists. I don't attend weekly meetings to affirm my disbelief in a Creator. In fact, aside from occasionally coming upon something like this and feeling compelled to say something, I hardly even think about my not believing in your God.
Man is endowed with a religious instinct. It is part of the nature of our species. So it becomes a cultural part of socialization because it' just natural to believe.
I was an atheist. I came to my religious belief through a combination fo intellectual study and experience.
This so-called "religious instinct" has involved believing in a heck of a lot of false beliefs. Like gods as anthropomorphic superbeings instead of some airy-fairy "ground of being".
One might as well talk about a "sorcery-belief instinct".
But if you don't cringe in fear of someone putting a hex on you, does that mean that you cannot be truly happy or fulfilled?
This so-called "religious instinct" has involved believing in a heck of a lot of false beliefs. Like gods as anthropomorphic superbeings instead of some airy-fairy "ground of being".
Classic mistake. you actually think the atheist straw man is really what religious people believe. that's ignorant and pathetic. why can't you read some books? I mean you've been flapping your gum bad mouthing religion for years now and you don't even know what religious people think.
One might as well talk about a "sorcery-belief instinct".
why? what does that have to do with it?
But if you don't cringe in fear of someone putting a hex on you, does that mean that you cannot be truly happy or fulfilled?
I don't fear that people will put hexes on me. IN fact that's one of the main things Christianity freed people from. you are so pathetically confused. I mean you are really quite ignorant and bigoted.
Me: Like gods as anthropomorphic superbeings instead of some airy-fairy "ground of being".
Classic mistake. you actually think the atheist straw man is really what religious people believe.
That's not an "atheist straw man" when it is what people actually believe. I know that from direct experience.
Me: One might as well talk about a "sorcery-belief instinct".
why? what does that have to do with it?
Why would anyone believe in the efficacy of sorcery if its efficacy is exactly zero?
I don't fear that people will put hexes on me. IN fact that's one of the main things Christianity freed people from.
Rewrite of history.
Me: Like gods as anthropomorphic superbeings instead of some airy-fairy "ground of being".
Meta:Classic mistake. you actually think the atheist straw man is really what religious people believe.
LordenThat's not an "atheist straw man" when it is what people actually believe. I know that from direct experience.
It is an atheist straw man becuase you don't understand that the concept such as "being itself' are part of the Christian concept of God and always have been. you think Christians just believe in a big man in the sky. That's what atheist arguments are about when you see more you get upset because you can't understand it or handle it. Most atheist go ape shit when they get off script.
Me:Loren One might as well talk about a "sorcery-belief instinct".
Meta:why? what does that have to do with it?
LorenWhy would anyone believe in the efficacy of sorcery if its efficacy is exactly zero?
Meta:I don't fear that people will put hexes on me. IN fact that's one of the main things Christianity freed people from.
LorenRewrite of history.
you don't know history. that is exactly the case. It was Christians stopped witch trials. I twas Christians who ended fear of superstition because God beats superstition. even if they believed in powers you don't believe in they still believed Jesus beats those powers so there's no point in fearing them.
stop just taking atheists words for things and start reading some history.
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