Friday, November 1, 2013

Clear example of how atheists twist scripture

  photo Atheist20cartoon.gif


Atheists on carm really need Christians to believe that we are still under the OT because that's where most of their attack on the Bible is most successful. they know it and they fight tooth and nail to maintain the heretical view that the OT is still in vogue. One such atheist who relies on that strategy a lot is "Deist." Often featured here. Confronted with passages saying the Old Covenant is nailed to the cross and argument that God never told Israel to murder people who thought differently then them he argued that God does command this. Look how he twists the scripture.



Originally Posted by ignatius View Post
Cite from the bible where it says Christians should stone non-believers. You obviously have no evidence for your other asinine comment maybe you'll have some for this one.
You know, I am surprised at the ignorance of the bible displayed by Christians here. It takes non believers to point you to the truth

Deist:

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Exodus 22:18
 Meta:
That's excusable since a lot people don't know the real word in Hebrew means  "one who poisons."

But he goes on to twist scriptuer badly.



Deist:
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10


Meta:


that's not what it says.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10


If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death.
 You might say that's still absurd. Yes it is by modern standards, in those days infants were sacrificed to pagan gods. this passage doesn't say just kill anyone who disagrees with you it doesn't say kill anyone who worships other gods. it's talking about actively leading the People of Israel away form the true God. The result of that will be infants will be killed.

Deist:
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Deist:
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Meta:




these are absolutely his paraphrases and they are not waht the Bible says. he's wildly twisting the meaning to support his view. The way Deist paraphrases it someone who is a devout Hebrew oculd be killed for a minor disagreemen that is within a framework of bleief. It doesnt' say anything like that. Here's what it says:

Deuteronomy 17:2-7
If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the Lord gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God in violation of his covenant, and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars in the sky, and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel...,(then it's "coutins")
 It doesn't say anything like kill anyone who disagrees with you. Again it's speaking of actively working to subvert belief in God.  I can see why the CARM atheists wouldn't like that. I really can. Let's remember the ramifications are a lot more serous than just burning incenses and sleeping with a temple prostitute. You could wind up killing you kid as ritual sacrifice. The real issue is they are actively working to destroy Israel. The reason to Keep Israel intact is so the world can be saved through Jesus.


Deist:
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13


Meta:
Have we gotten the pattern down now? what do you think it really says? 


Deuteronomy 17:12-13
12 Anyone who shows contempt for the judge or for the priest who stands ministering there to the Lord your God is to be put to death. You must purge the evil from Israel. 13 All the people will hear and be afraid, and will not be contemptuous again.

Pretty Draconian measure for contempt of court. A lot of lawyers wouldn't like that. It say so much more than just Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. for one thing we are talking about a judge in court not just a priest in chruch.









 Deist:
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20



 Meta:

 Deuteronomy 18:20
 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
 Now unreasonable is that really? It doesn't just kill false prophets it says if they lead people in the name of other gods or if they speak things no commanded. Considering that prophets were one of the biggest sources of power who held real sway over what the people did, that made their honesty and veracity pretty important. It's not just being mean or arbitrary, the life of the nation rested in their hands.

this nex one shows his total dishonesty

 Deist:
Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11





Meta
 Mark 6:11
And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them."
 As you can see it says nothing of the kind. It doesn't' say anything bad will happen. It only says make a testimony against them. I says nothing about the consequences of it. He's asserted something with no proof. the King James has the bit about Somom and Gamorrah but its' not in the NIV because it's not in the MS used by Wescott and Hort. That's another point. The best pile of  MS the modern modern don't reflect that part of it.


Deist
Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5
Meta
That is a reference to Exodus to the Egyptians who were pursuing the Israelite to take them back to slavery and perhaps kill many of them if not most. Obviously more justifiable than just saying "God's goign to do anyone anyone who disagrees with you." this is hows us how totally dishonest they aer and now they will twist the meaning of anything to defame the Bible and Christianity.





Then he tires to take on the idea of the new covenant repainting the oc. He has a motive to opposes it because if that's true he loses his major argument agaisnt Christianity. So of course he mocks and ridicules it. Calling it names proves it's no good.

 Deist
Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)

He uses the version that is without the phrase "until the fulfillment." So the fulfillment we all know was When Christ died on the cross. the passage does not say that the Old Convent Mosaic law will be in until heaven and earth pass away. It ways until it's fulfilled, which it was. The reference to heaven and earth means it is as enduring as heaven and earth but that doesnt' mean it's fulillment wont come soon.

here's NIV that does say it will be fufilled:

Matthew 5:17-18
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

In every case he uses the JKV so it will more strict and wont include the breaks. That may not be his fault but it seems he didn't go to any trouble to learn how study.


 Here's a Passage where Paul says the old Covenant is done away.
 Colossians 2:13-14, in which Paul states,
"And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross".
 Here's a pretty decent study that shows a great many passages saying its' done away and good explanation of how they prove it. This is by a Church of God pastor.

 http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?166459-Do-atheists-have-sincere-feelings&p=4914037#post4914037

7 comments:

JBsptfn said...

That's the problem with Atheists.

They see the Bible through 21st Century eyes, and don't think about how things were then.

And, they seem to attack the OT a lot. However, that was before Jesus came to bring us out of the law. We are under grace now.

Metacrock said...

Yes that's true but then that guy's understanding is so surface level. "this is what I want to see and that's all I care about." No "why" involved.

Sohan Dsouza said...

Well, if the problem is sacrificing infants, why not just say "kill anyone who murders or incites murder"? As for merely trying to lead people away from Judaism (which, by the way, Christians themselves have been doing since the beginning of Christianity), how exactly is that a crime, let alone one worthy of death?

Oh, and if we are now "under grace", can we stop sticking the Ten Commandments in front of public buildings?

Metacrock said...

Infant sacrifice comment makes no sense. we are not talking penalties.

Christians don't lead people away from Judaism since is the Messiah. one is not in line with Judaism when one is in rebellion Against God's Messiah.

Under grace doesn't mean there's no right or wrong. 10 commandments rent' the Mosaic law. We don't live by them in a legalistic way but we still live them.

Peter Z. said...

I don't think it's a matter of not seeing things "as they were then" vs. modern society. I think it's a relevant question of God's moral character, which is perfect, infinite and unchanging. Thus, what he decrees hundreds or thousands of years ago is right, regardless of how much time has transpired or what has occurred since. It is within God's moral character to order the death of human beings.

Joe Hinman said...

I appreciate your comment. I agree with it to an extent but we need to be extremely careful. in thinking we know what God commands, especially when it involves killing.

Anonymous said...

I am a deist and i ask you:

What about revelations book (god kill and make suffer all life in earth)?