here is a list complied from two studies, Wuthnow and Nobel. They show the qualities that make up the concept of "transformation."

Note. atheists try to reduce transformation to "Happy." Look at how much more the real concept includes aside form "happy."


Long-Term Effects

Wuthnow:

*Say their lives are more meaningful,
*think about meaning and purpose
*Know what purpose of life is
Meditate more
*Score higher on self-rated personal talents and capabilities
*Less likely to value material possessions, high pay, job security, fame, and having lots of friends
*Greater value on work for social change, solving social problems, helping needy
*Reflective, inner-directed, self-aware, self-confident life style

Noble:

*Experience more productive of psychological health than illness
*Less authoritarian and dogmatic
*More assertive, imaginative, self-sufficient
*intelligent, relaxed
*High ego strength,
*relationships, symbolization, values,
*integration, allocentrism,
*psychological maturity,
*self-acceptance, self-worth,
*autonomy, authenticity, need for solitude,
*increased love and compassion

Short-Term Effects (usually people who did not previously know of these experiences)

*Experience temporarily disorienting, alarming, disruptive
*Likely changes in self and the world,
*space and time, emotional attitudes, cognitive styles, personalities, doubt sanity and reluctance to communicate, feel ordinary language is inadequate

*Some individuals report psychic capacities and visionary experience destabilizing relationships with family and friends Withdrawal, isolation, confusion, insecurity, self-doubt, depression, anxiety, panic, restlessness, grandiose religious delusions

Links to Maslow's Needs, Mental Health, and Peak Experiences When introducing entheogens to people, I find it's helpful to link them to other ideas people are familiar with. Here are three useful quotations. 1) Maslow - Beyond Self Actualization is Self Transcendence ``I should say that I consider Humanistic, Third Force Psychology to be transitional, a preparation for a still `higher' Fourth Psychology, transhuman, centered in the cosmos rather than in human needs and interest, going beyond humanness, identity, self actualization and the like.''



(poster on CARM)
Deist answers:

Originally Posted by Metacrock View Post
here is a list complied from two studies, Wuthnow and Nobel. They show the qualities that make up the concept of "transformation."

Note. atheists try to reduce transformation to "Happy." Look at how much more the real concept includes aside form "happy."


Long-Term Effects

Wuthnow:

*Say their lives are more meaningful,

Deist:
SO THEY SAY

*think about meaning and purpose

Deist:
SO DO I

*Know what purpose of life is

Deist:
REALLY NOW. DID THEY SAY WHAT IT WAS? TO GLORIFY GOD? TO GET TO HEAVEN?

(capitalization is his)

Meditate more

THIS IS MEANINGFUL? DOI THEY MEDITATE ON THEIR NAVEL? DOES THIS HELP SOCIETY?

*Score higher on self-rated personal talents and capabilities

SELF RATED? ISN'T THAT CONVEEEEENEINT?

*Less likely to value material possessions, high pay, job security, fame, and having lots of friends

ARE THEY BUMS? MOST CHRISTIANS I KNOW LIVE VERY LARGE. NICE TO CONTEND YOU DON'T VALUE THOSE THINGS WHILE SIPPING A MAI TAI IN VEGAS

Do you get the Pattern here?the pattern here? He's not even thinking about what is being said, he's just taking whatever I say and making some extremely stupid little snide remark about it. I say they are made less materialistic by their experience he says "O they are bums." Yes he's being so thoughtful about it all. He's really talking time to consider it isn't he. Just consider the stupidity of doing this. It's abundantly clear this guy is not there to discuss anything.

*Greater value on work for social change, solving social problems, helping needy

ATHEISTS DO THIS JUST AS MUCH WITHOUT TRYING TO CONVERT PEOPLE TO ATHEISM

So what? does that make them better? No and you can't prove they do it. quote some statistics to show that they do it. I don't believe any atheists work of positive change, only trying to tear down things that make people good, that's what he refers to. Studies show atheists don't give and don't believe in love.

*Reflective, inner-directed, self-aware, self-confident life style

AND THIS SAYS WHAT? PURELY SUBJECTIVE, ANYWAY.

so we can just ignore it! Its' "subjective" (the evil horrible state that must be deneid) so it doesn't exist so there's no argument. How totally idiotic can you get? How can they have a movement based upon being stupid?

There's no such thing as being self aware because it's subjective. That's typical of people who poor self esteem.


Noble:

*Experience more productive of psychological health than illness

I BEG TO DIFFER. I CAN FIND LOTS OF WHACKED OUT CHRISTIANS

Then do it stupid! shwo some stats! these are studies quoting you delectable little cretin, show some counter studies dumb bud!

*Less authoritarian and dogmatic

GIVE ME A BRRRREEEAAAK HERE. CHRISTIANS WANT TO SHOVE THEIR PHILOSOPHY DOWN THE THROATS OF OTHERS. YOU BEING A PRIMNE EXAMPLE!

*More assertive, imaginative, self-sufficient
ASSERTIVE WITH FORCING THEIR RELIGION ON OTHERS.

*intelligent, relaxed
I HAVEN'T SEEN IT DEMONSTRATED HERE

*High ego strength,
I HAVE PLENTY OF THAT MYSELF. WHY DIDN'T THEY INTERVIEW ME?

*relationships, symbolization, values,
PSYCHO BABBLE

*integration, allocentrism,
PSYCHO BABBLE...NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING INPORTANT, ANYWAY
*psychological maturity,
YAEHHH, RIGGGGHHHT. LIKE BELIEVING IN ZOMBIES AND TALKING SNAKES.

*self-acceptance, self-worth,
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE QUESTIONS ASKED, THE DATA, AND PROOF AS MOST NON BELIEVERS HAVE A VERY HIGH REGARD OF THEMSELF AND HIGH SELF ESTEEM.

*autonomy, authenticity, need for solitude,
SO THEY PRAY A LOT TO A SKY GOD.

*increased love and compassion
I DOUBT IT, CAUSE YOU CAN'T QUANTIFY LOVE AND COMPASSION. IT'S LIKE SAYING A CHRISTIAN LOVES HIS DAUGHTER MORE THAN AN ATHEIST. THIS IS DRIVEL.

Short-Term Effects (usually people who did not previously know of these experiences)

*Experience temporarily disorienting, alarming, disruptive
I AGREE WITH THIS. SEEING PEOPLE RISING FROM GRAVES AND WALKING THE STREETS IS VERY ALARMING.

*Likely changes in self and the world,
IF I SAW A ZOMBIE, I'D CHANGE SOMETHING. BUT, TELL ME, META, WHAT DID CHRISTIANS DO TO CHANGE THE WORLD OTHER THAN THE RUTHLESS METHODS USED TO GAIN AND KEEP CONVERTS?

*space and time, emotional attitudes, cognitive styles, personalities, doubt sanity and reluctance to communicate, feel ordinary language is inadequate
LIKE TALKING IN TONGUES? WHO THE HECK CAME UP WITH THIS STUPID STUDY?

*Some individuals report psychic capacities and visionary experience destabilizing relationships with family and friends Withdrawal, isolation, confusion, insecurity, self-doubt, depression, anxiety, panic, restlessness, grandiose religious delusions
I AGREE WITH ALL OF THIS, AND IMAGINE THIS LAST SENTENCE WAS WHAT THE STUDY SHOULD HAVE CONCLUDED. I COULD HAVE TOLD THE RESEARCHERS AS MUCH.

Links to Maslow's Needs, Mental Health, and Peak Experiences When introducing entheogens to people, I find it's helpful to link them to other ideas people are familiar with. Here are three useful quotations. 1) Maslow - Beyond Self Actualization is Self Transcendence ``I should say that I consider Humanistic, Third Force Psychology to be transitional, a preparation for a still `higher' Fourth Psychology, transhuman, centered in the cosmos rather than in human needs and interest, going beyond humanness, identity, selfactualization and the like.''

He's capitalizing becuase he lacks basic computer skills and can't put it in a quote box, but the computer skills don't show up in his other other posts. he's just using this as an exuse to be nasty and shout.

Originally Posted by Deist View Post
My computer or something is not right, so I can't do the quotes, but bear with me, because I think answers to these bogus general studies are necessary, and I'll insert my comments in capital letters underneath each subjective evaluation
you did one quote, why you do more?

you have no right to call them bogus! you know nothing about them. They are every single one Peer reviewed, published in academic journals, done by qualified social scientists with good methodological procedures.

anyone calling these studies bogus either knows nothing about them nothing about social scinece or is just willfully dispensing BS.

Originally Posted by Metacrock View Post
here is a list complied from two studies, Wuthnow and Nobel. They show the qualities that make up the concept of "transformation."

Note. atheists try to reduce transformation to "Happy." Look at how much more the real concept includes aside form "happy."


Long-Term Effects

Wuthnow:

*Say their lives are more meaningful,

SO THEY SAY

what a stunning answer. so they sa. gee that's so brilliant he merely denies what Is said (without really even knowing what it is). What intellectual acuity! wow who would ever think of that.

who else is going to know it? This is competent scinece, this is the way all social scinece research is done. It's silly to complain about asking people who they are don't becasue no one else can know. It's like if a shirk asks a guy "do you have any special powers" (which they do ask to determine if the guy is delusional) then you would say "O that's stupid how could he have powers." they have a reason for asking.

Its' silly to assume anytime you ask the respondent something it must be wrong. Studies that produce scientific data on observations about neurosis and psychosis and whatever are done the very same way!

*think about meaning and purpose

SO DO I


yes but they already have a average for how often people do taht. The compare the avaerage throug the control group to the experimental group and they see it goes way for the experince people.

*Know what purpose of life is

REALLY NOW. DID THEY SAY WHAT IT WAS? TO GLORIFY GOD? TO GET TO HEAVEN?

These guys are not necessary Christians and weren't necessarily when they had their expression. You are not reasoning very clearly or deeply you badly need to learn about social scinece research. you remarks are silly and childish.

the fact that these guys feel that they have new insight into meaning in life is what's important, not if they really do or not. They go from not having before the experience, to having it after the experience and that means the experienced has some something for them.

you are also compelled missing the point. the point was look how much more goes into transformation than just being happy! you are not listening!

Meditate more

THIS IS MEANINGFUL? DOI THEY MEDITATE ON THEIR NAVEL? DOES THIS HELP SOCIETY?

That's truly STUPID! You regard meditation as way out thing but scinece has proved it's valid and valuable. you are living in the world of 40 years ago. In fact most atheists on this baords have expressed positive about meditation.

doing doing mediation is taken as a sign of transformed life because it means less stress, more awareness, better emphasis on health.

*Score higher on self-rated personal talents and capabilities

SELF RATED? ISN'T THAT CONVEEEEENEINT?

No it's not convenient little nay sayer if you know anything about social scinece which you do not! self rated means they give them a list and they check it off and the scoring produce is pre set.

that's about as intelligent saying "answering questions on an IQ test, well isn't that contivnet they answer the questions themselves hu? how does tell how smart they are.

you wont some guy in a white labl caot to look at them and go "are you an atheist?" Ok you pass, yoku are mentally healthy." "are you an atheist, no? o you are insane."

*Less likely to value material possessions, high pay, job security, fame, and having lots of friends



do you ever think about anything you say? do you realize all you are doing is nay saying each and every quotability it's really dumb because the point how complex the concept not that they right about each and ever little feature.

what we really learn is
(1) you can't follow an argument
(2) you know nothing about scinece, especially social
(3) you are not able to analyze very well
(4) you don't listen.


*Greater value on work for social change, solving social problems, helping needy


Nope. atheists flap big stupid mouths about that doesn't mean they do it. most atheists don't do that much. that is really a childish response. you are looking at each one going"this person is a stupid idiotic fundamental i hate them, what degrading thing can I say about them?"

In addition to your other short comings you are not willing to even think fairly about. You have no dat to prove your silly childish little retort, the data shows the experience expedience people do it more. So you are wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

snip similar silly well poisoning clap trap.


*Likely changes in self and the world,

IF I SAW A ZOMBIE, I'D CHANGE SOMETHING. BUT, TELL ME, META, WHAT DID CHRISTIANS DO TO CHANGE THE WORLD OTHER THAN THE RUTHLESS METHODS USED TO GAIN AND KEEP CONVERTS?

obvious poisoning the well. you refuse to think about the contrary evidence hu? any evidence against your little ideology you can't even fair minded enough to think about it for five seconds. Every single one of these you said some stupid little derisive insightful bull ****.


So what does this prove? you are going to say it's just one little dysfunctional moron out there and this is the internet this is where they are. Yet it's clealry not this one guy. It's on every single message board where atheists post and argue with Christians. One can find this same attitude on every board all over the net every single day. There are thousands of little flies pestering people trying to really think with this kind of unthinking little stupidity. What are atheists learning form each other? When they never chide one another for this kind of stupidity that they learn "this is what I must do to be a good atheist." This si what atheists are, this is how you go about being one, you say assigned things that you do't think about and refuse to consider anything the enemy says, and be as snide and condescending as possible.

This is the basic brown shirt mentality. These guys are the brown shirts of the net. They are doing what the original Brown Shirts did, they combed out through the city looking for enemies of the Nazi party and beating the snot out of them and disrupting their ralleys. This is what atheists do they comb the net looking for opportunities to disrupt theistic thinking.

Take my challenge go on a message board and pretend to be a Christian (if you are atheists) and see how they treat you. Why do you think it is that in all the years I've been making the challenge no one has ever taken me up on it? Because atheists know how they treat Christians.