Wednesday, February 23, 2011

The on Going battle: Atheism is an organized objective but not a movement (?)!!

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these comments were sent to me by Electric Skeptic a guy on CARM in response to "I am overwhelmed by their stupidity."

ES
Atheists aren't stupid - in fact, they are, on average, better educated and more intelligent than theists, and the claim that they "can't listen and don't think" is simply a lie.
Meta: First of all I was speaking of atheists on CARM, no all atheists everywhere. I wasn't counting people like Bertrand Russell in my remarks. I think there is a vast difference in people on message boards and in real life. The message boards draw a higher concentration of both stupid people and smart people. one can find very bright atheists on boards as well. The majority on CARM and other atheist boards such as Atheist net, are just childish.

btw on who is smarter, defining it by IQ (not necessarily the best) studies show 17 studies to 6 that religious people are either smarter or no correlation between belief and intelligence. The studies that show atheists are smarter are old and badly done. See my pages on Doxa.

ES
Atheism, of course, isn't a movement (a series of organized activities working toward an objective; also : an organized effort to promote or attain an end).
Meta: O really! that's interesting apparently I'm making head way. The peroper atheist template response is "atheism is merely the ab sense of belief in God or gods." To actually admit it's organized in any or has any connection to organized activities is a real come down form the standard response. Does anyone really think you can have a set of organized things seeking an objective (what is that objective?) without having a movement? Why do you mean "organized effort to promote or attain an end?" What end?

Isn't that rather like saying "I am not a thief I just liberate certain valuable objects from people who have a technical claim before the law to own them?" Come on, who is orgtanizing it? what end is working for (the destruction of religion?) Who organized it? What set the end or the objective? Why is that not the description of a movement? That's pretty transparent. What's intersting is that he didn't give the standard response. I think he sees that with the documentation I've used to prove therein an organized effort he realizes it's more ridiculous to try and claim there's no organized effort.

In any practical sense: it's a movement! (I get that he was defining movement not defining atheism I'm being factious, but he has not answered the proof the organized effort how could anyone deny that it is an organized effort with all those law suits and bus signs campaigns around the world it's obvious there's a huge amount of organized effort.).

ES
After your post about 8 levels of verification there were, of course, far more replies than "eye witnesses are bad. eye witness confirm Joseph Smith so therefore eye witnesses are bad". When you claim that saying that is "all that they do", you lie.
Meta:A few but not nearly "far more." Hardly.


ES
There is no "atheist summer camp" nor is there any set of standard atheist dogma, as seems to be implied.
Meta: I was real serious about summer camp. (aw rats, I was hoping for a good summer camp).


ES
And no, you haven't proved anything. You have provided some evidence; you have provided no proof whatsoever.
Meta: I've proved that belief in historical validity of the Gosples is rationally warranted. That largely is a matter of understanding the term "historical validity." Most CARMites assumed it means "the resurrection is totally proved." that would be a shallow claim. Obviously I never claimed that. Those guys never consider anything I say. We don't have to prove the truth claims of Christianty to establish the validity of religious bleief. All we need to prove is that it's rational to believe the truth claims. The valid existence of evidence justifying such a position is more than enough to demonstrate it's rationality.

ES
And as always you ignore the fact that most atheists quite readily agree that the evidence indicates that there was indeed a person named Jesus at the time and further, that he was a leader of some degree. It is the supernatural events described in the gospels that atheists reject as being unevidenced - quite rightly.
Meta: somehow those guys are always lost when the Jesus mythers start wailing on it. They never speak up unless you force them to.

ES
But of course, don't let the facts stop your endless tirade of hate against atheists.


Meta: Hey don't worry man, I wont. ;-)

thanks for your concern

2 comments:

Electric said...

Meta: O really! that's interesting apparently I'm making head way. The peroper atheist template response is "atheism is merely the ab sense of belief in God or gods." (snipped to save space)
You completely misunderstood what I posted. The section in the brackets is, in fact, a definition of 'movement' (a series of organized activities working toward an objective; also : an organized effort to promote or attain an end). I was citing it to show that atheism is not a movement. In effect, I said "Atheism is not a movement (which is defined as a series of organized activities working toward an objective; also : an organized effort to promote or attain an end). I just left out the "which is defined as" because I thought it would be pretty clear. Apparently it wasn't.

In any case, atheism has no organised activities, it has no objective, there is no organised effort. To be clear:

Atheism is not a movement.

Atheism is nothing more than a lack of belief in the existence of gods.

Isn't that rather like saying "I am not a thief I just liberate certain valuable objects from people who have a technical claim before the law to own them (snipped to save space)
All irrelevant since you completely misunderstood what was said. Atheism is not a 'movement'. It doesn't have an end it's working for. It's not organised. And I nowhere said or implied it is.

What's intersting is that he didn't give the standard response. I think he sees that with the documentation I've used to prove therein an organized effort he realizes it's more ridiculous to try and claim there's no organized effort.
And you think wrongly. You've provided zero to prove an organised effort. There is none.

In any practical sense: it's a movement! (I get that he was defining movement not defining atheism I'm being factious, but he has not answered the proof the organized effort how could anyone deny that it is an organized effort with all those law suits and bus signs campaigns around the world it's obvious there's a huge amount of organized effort.).
Wait...now you claim that you understand that I was defining 'movement', not 'atheism'? In that case everything in your post to this point makes zero sense at all. And no, atheism is not an organised effort. Sorry, but a few atheists getting together for a given task does not make atheism "an organised effort".

Meta: I've proved that belief in historical validity of the Gosples is rationally warranted. (snipped to save space)
And now we go back to one of your standard tactics. You claim to have proved something (the truth of the gospels, the existence of God, whatever) and, when it's pointed out that you've done no such thing, you claim instead that you've proved "rational warrant" for belief in those things. Firstly, you need to stop making the false claim that you have proved these things; secondly, you need to stop claiming that you have proved "rational warrant", because what is and isn't "rational warrant" is completely subjective. You believe that your belief is rational; we do not. You cannot demonstrate that we are wrong (in believing your belief to be irrational) and we cannot demonstrate that you are wrong (in believing your belief to be rational).

somehow those guys are always lost when the Jesus mythers start wailing on it. They never speak up unless you force them to.
They speak up just as soon as they are asked. I have no responsibility to correct people who claim (for example) that Jesus never existed. I have a responsibility only to my own position.

Hey don't worry man, I wont.
I was confident you wouldn't. Facts never stop zealotes.

Metacrock said...

all of your slogism is merely contradicted by the facts. everything you say aout "no agonized activities" clearly bs. you can't get bus signs campaigns in every major country around the world without organization. you can't get 50 law suits going in a 20 year period on every major religious topic without organization and money. you can't money without organization.

Shock: It's not only organized it big business!