Who is the Narrow Minded One?

A certain percentage of the real hateful sort of atheists are gay. For a lot of them their hatred of Christianity is in relation to that. It's no big mystery that's what I would expect.What I didn't expect was one who doesn't really care about truth he only cares about mileage. That is he wants to make political mileage from his arguments about Christianity. It's not because he's gay, a gay could be honest and really care about what people think. It's nothing to do with his sexual preference. It's nothing to do with his being an atheist either. It has more to do with this guy, just being who he is. Although I suspect it also has to do with his activism, becasue political activism--I say from experience--sort grinds you down and forces you into a mold where your true beliefs and sensibilities get turned into tools in service to the cause. I think that's the case with "Paradoxical" a poster on CARM. Its good to be aware of this becuase even tough I don't use it to draw stereotypes about people but it is a good lesson, some atheists may be reacting as they are for reasons that are not connected to atheism.

I think the hatred and zeal for anger against Christianity one finds in atheism is feeding this guy's dogmatism. The issue is gays, is being gay a sin or not? He was asking me what I thought I was dumb to think he really wanted an answer. He doesn't want an answer he wants a stooge that he can mileage out of.


the original post he asked if I think Homosexuality is a sin:

Originally Posted by Metacrock

It's a tough issue. I have gay friends and a gay relative. I can't just ignore the Bible and my gut but I accept accept those guys going to hell either.

I don't believe in treating people like sub humans even if one does believe its a sin. that is not no excuse for treating people badly. We all sin, there's no reason to assume one kind of sin so much worse than all others.

I think the key to it is I don't believe in hell.

to which he answers:

Why is homosexuality a "sin", Meta?

I didn't actually say it was and we went round and round on this point.

Meta:

Is it? Did I say that it was? I thought I said I can't ignore the Bible? Does the bible teach its' a

sin? why don't you prove to me that the Bible teaches that?

Paradoxical

Did you forget you said the below, Meta? They're not going to hell, but...??? You as much said it was below, so quit playing Mr. innocent and dumb.
PS. Homosexuality is an obomination and they deserve death....YOUR God, and YOUR bible
[yes he is a libertarian so he's making a pun on Obama]

So what's just happened? I said "if" and spoke conditionally he sys "You said this" on goes on a rampage as though I really did not speak conditionally. Why? As we will see not because he care what I said, not because he gives a rat's ass about my answer it's because he wants me to say "because they are evil" so he can say "Christians are evil." I had some real reasons for not saying one way or the other. In course of the thread I laid these out. They made no difference to him.

On the side of gayness being a sin I said that the Bible condemns it as such. Paul says it's a sin. He says it's dishonorable passions. That may be a cue as to why it would be a sin. Althlough trying to figure out why something from the first century is "dishonorable" as a passion in the 21st century is a daunting issue. I also shared the into that a certain Greek word translated "effeminate" in 2 cor really means to be on the receiving end in the homosexual intercourse act.

On the contrary side of the issue I've seen a good word study that abomination means just a violation of ritual purity laws. Since Christians are not under ritural purity laws of that OT now the OT prohibitions would not apply. Asdie from Paul's statments in Romans (dishonorable Passions) and 2 cor (homosexual intercourse) there's not much about it. Jesus never said it was a sin. No other NT writer says it's a sin. I can't tell you why it should be a sin. To say it's a sin one would have to base that purely upon Paul himself. I am not sure that's really strong enough. I am not an inerrantist. I reiterated the bit about treating people rightly. While the status of gayness is not clear to me it is clear that we are to treat all people as beloved creatures of God and give the basic human respect they deserve. None of that is good enough for him of course. We had more exchanges like hte one above where I'm dancing around saying I don't know if it's a sin because I sensed that he wanted me to make a stand so he would have be pigeon holed. He is dancing around trying really hard to force me to say Yea or nay about it being a sin.



Originally Posted by Paradoxical

Meta, psst, it's the Ugandans who want to kill millions of gay people because it's in the bible.

where in the bible does it say to kill them?

what that has to do with anything I don't know becuase I never said anything that would support killing anyone.

Paradoxocial

You aren't "sure" yourself, and you're as liberal as they get.

he's saying if the liberal Christian can't be any more determined to support gays than this then we can expect most Christians to try to kill them, or something like that.

Meta:

I'm not as liberal as they get. Real liberals like the one's I studied under at seminary would say "why would it be a sin?" In fact that seminary hired a gay to teach there, openly gay Methodist. UMC openly accepts gays.

I don't really know the official UMC position and being in the UMC (United Methodist Church) I would assume they don't know themselves. But there's a lot of acceptance for gays in the UMC.

Paradox:

Is it any wonder people justify bullying them, hanging them, and now giving them the death penalty?

Meta:

that's totally ridiculous. you are trying to make me feel guilty by saying I don't know. so why are you so admitted about forcing me to a position? what do you gain by my taking a position?

People don't harass gays because they don't know if it's a sin. People who do that know for certain what they think about it. That is also contradicted by my stance that if I don't know about that activity then I do at least know clearly how to treat people I've already nixed treating anyone as less than human. Treating people as "human" for means respecting them as humans.

It is obvious to me you are the intolerant [one] who cant' allow others to have their own views. If I don't take a stand in agreement with you then I'm one of "them." You are as brown shirt as they get without actually using your fists.

It's funny to me that you just ignore what Is aid about how to treat like I didn't even say it. It makes me wonder if it even really matters to you. I didn't think you care what I say. you have this canned response all planed out. talking to me is just part of a ploy. you don't give an rat's hind quarters about truth or thinking or anything.

Paradox

It's in YOUR bible, and the great Meta isn't even sure if it's a sin....

you are making of fool of yourself. I knew you would not be able to talk in a reasonable way about it. That's why I wasn't really willing to do it. You couldn't care less about my positional it's all matter of what can you get the mirage pout of hu?

Meta:

you are not a thinker of any kind you are knee jerk reactionary.

Paradox:

a man who studies the bible minute for most of his life does''t even know if the God he worships thinks it's a sin. What a despicable, decadent religion.

At this point I think it's more anger because I wouldn't give him an excuse to rail against Christians for being intolerant than anything else. He's clearly trying to guilt me into taking a stand.

Meta:

you probably tell people Christianity motivates by guilt and shame. what are you doing?

ok class here is the lesson in dealing with narrow minded intolerant ******* political activists. Notice he is driven to force me to declare.

if I say it's a sin then he has a foil O see I knew they are all like. I defuse that by saying "I don't know" so he can't stand it so tries to do it anyway by making me feel guilty about noting being definite.

He loses nothing whichever way I go. If I say it's a sin then's gained an example of how evil Christians are, if I say it's not a sin then he can use me as support for his views and that will the thin end of the wedge to use cognitive dissonance to get ground on other issues.

saying I don't know louses his whole deal he doesn't have any lever so he tries to shame me into talking a position.

this evening he does this one:

Originally Posted by Paradoxical

Meta, you are a self proclaimed bible expert,

self procalimed? what happened to my Masters degree. do you think you can take that away from me? Like I didn't get it because you dont' want me to have it?

I have a Masters degree weahter you like it or not. I read the NT in Greek weather you like it or not. That makes me much more of an expert than you will ever be.

and one who knows the history of that time period like the back of his hand.

I never said that. I have been triened as a historian. you have not be so trianed.

You know without me telling you that the bible which people contend is the word of God says they are an abomination and deserve death, and you feign ignorance as to whether or not YOUR God believes this is a sin.

where does it say they deserve death? didn't I already tell you that abomination is debatable as to what it means? why do you make up things? can't argue honestly?
you are so desperate to find the villain the evil Christian to point to you can't even listen to beings said directly to you.

In Uganda, they are using the bible in an attempt to give gay people the death penalty.

I don't live in Uganda. I didnt' go seminary in Uganda. Texas is not as primative as Uganda. I don't belong to a Ungandan chruch.

In America, Baptists use their money to deny gays the right to marry. When bullies beat them up and embarrass them to the point of suicide, it's because their parents have taught them that the BIBLE says being gay is sinful.

can you say "guilt by assocaition?"

do you know what a fallacy is? did you know guilt by association is a fallacy?

And YOU, an admitted bible expert contend you don't know?

I know what people say about it. also know it's a lot more complex than that. You are really having a hard aren't you? It would make it so much easier for you if I jsut said its' a sin so you can say "Ha! see the evil Christians Ooooooooo!"

guess what? I'm not going to prostitute my position just to make pionts in arguement like you are. Unlike you I have actual beliefs rather than just causes.

That absolute BS and you know it.

you are being simple minded.

I tried to get a yes or a no out of you and you feign ignorance again.

ROTFLOL! you failed. you are not a very good interegator are you?

By YOUR silence, Meta, YOU and others like you are responsible for the harrassment and killing of gays.

Me and others like me. that means I'm like the little red neck idiots who tied the guy to the fens because why? becasue I wont knuckle under and say what this jr. brown shirt wants me to say. That is so utterly stupid. It's obvious I'm not like those guys and it's stupid to say that not pronouncing gayness as fine and dandy is the same killings that lame brained.

ahahaahahahaah you are so desperate to have a villain and be the hero have someone to dump your bile over. That's pathetic. People like me. you don't know anything about me. You just making of bunch of silly judgments based upon the rhetorical need. You need someone to lash out at so you are going to pretend I"m some some evil fundie weather I am or not!

Their blood is on your hands because they get their nonsense from the bible. The very same one that you, as a bible EXPERT, better than a priest or pastor, contend doesn't give you a clue as to whether or not it is a sin.

I claim you bound in Jesus name> I reverse your curse in the name of Jesus.
(getting a little frivolous there)

ROTFLOL! ahahahaaha can you really be and inane! That's such a selish liittel tantrum. First of all I didn't say it was a sin. because I wont say what you want me to you are to just declair that I'm guilty.

You are not going to inteimiate me you are not going to control me. get that through your little head. I'm don't play your little games do you hear waht I'm saying?

You cannot pronounce me guilty of anything. you are guilty. you are guilty. Where were you when the people of Nicaragua were being murdered? you off at some little self gay thing instead of working to end the murder, rape, torture and lies of the contra war. I did work on it. I put my life on the line with the FBI to fight contra aid and I don't have to feel guilty about anything.

I went to the anti-Bork rally and almost got beat up by right wringers. I don't owe you anything. You are not anywhere near up to my level of activism and you are gonna have to a lot more in the struggle to match that I did 30 years ago. You not even in the struggle your a right winger so you actually guilty yourselves of the murder of the poor.

These are human beings, Meta....BORN that way, and it is despicable Christians who denigrate them, and remain silent when they commit suicide and when Uganda wants to kill them because of some Evangelical Christian having read some books that says they can change. I'm ashamed of you Meta. I thought better of you.

I said its' a sin to hurt people. I said guys are entitled to every bit the same human rights as anyone. If that's enough too bad. tugh.

you are a phony. you are not a fighter for human freedom. you are part of the problem because you don't even get the issues. Ayn Rand was a fool and murderer of the poor anyone who follows her garbage is guilty of murdering the poor.

I am not silent. I have condemned harming gays or harassing them. I have said explicitly it doesn't matter if it's a sin or not treating people that way is a sin. If that's enough then too bad. that just proves he's not sincere about his beliefs he's throughing a tantrum because I wont do things his way.


He's not upset because I might say gayness is a sin.If I said he would be happy. he' not trying to force me to say it's not a sin. If I say it's a sin he has ammunition if I say it is not then he has an endorsement. In saying I don't know he's deprived of the ammunition he wants so he's throwing a little tantrum. I don't think this is a particularly gay way to act. I'm sure there are mature gays than this guy. It's not necessarily an atheist way to act. It's a stupid way to act and we should be prepared for that.

What is my true opinion on the issue? I really don't know. I am opposed fundamentally to persecuting anyone. "Sin" does not translate into "opening season on the sinner."