Tuesday, March 17, 2009

Lessons in Ideology

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The Arguments in the two previous articles (made Arizona Atheists) are Prefect illustrations of what I call the "ideology of hate group atheism." Just to be clear what I maintain: I am saying that the atheist community is spread out on a continuum. It goes from reasonable knowledgeable thinkers to "fundamentalists" much as Christianity or any other community. The atheist "fundies" or "Dawkamentalists" are extremists who basically exhibit many of the same characteristics of a hate group found in the FBI profile of hate groups.


AA contuied to insist that his arguments were logical and mine are not, and that I know no logic, even though he failed to name a single law of logic that I violate. Some of his arguments were actually logically construed, but they were not arguments about logic. So when it came time to give examples of why he thinks my logic is bad. all he ever did was insist that it's so. Never did he give a single argument other than his original assertion that all God arguments are God of the gaps arguments. I went through ten of my arguments and showed that none of them were God of the gaps. He never answered a single one but continues to assert that it must be the case and that I know nothing of logic.

AA exhibited perfectly circular reasoning and other fallacious assumptions. He argued from analogy, which is a fallacy. He used circular reasoning. Consider his final parting face saving attempt:

I'm the hateful one?! Now I know you're nothing but delusional. I'm not the one who said I wanted to make christians illegal. One more chance for what? To prove what a dipshit you are? No thanks. I'm not doing the same things you are; I'm responding to your asshole behavior.


But remember I didn't say that. He didn't quote me. He claimed to have proof but never showed it. What he originally said was "I heard that you said this." So then I denied it so then he asserts that I did. Here we see the ideology at work. The stubborn insistence that I must be illogical and his views are the standard of logical thought, despite any ability to demonstrate any knowledge of logic or to refute my arguments in any way. The "don't confuse me with the fact" attitude, and the insistence that I must be the hateful one despite the fact that I resisting any personal insults until the last exchange when he had just gone so far over the top I couldn't hold back any more. He resorted to insulting my intelligence. I did not resort to call him names such as "stupid" until well after he called me that several times. His speak was loaded and peppered with hateful tones and innuendos. I was truly trying my best not to resort to personal remarks. But of course he doesn't take any of that into account.

Just because you're unable to recognize a logical argument when it's presented to you doesn't mean I didn't make one.


Of course he doesn't demonstrate any knowledge of logic at all. He made no attempt to analyze the logic of any argument I make. He didn't use any terms of logic or talk about any rules of logic. One wonders if he is even aware that logic has a special vocabulary. It's clear that all he's really doing is comparing what I say to the ideological slogans that he thinks in and then since what I say fits the criteria for the hated target and doesn't match that of the ideological slogans, then I must be illogical because that's the way ideologues see the world.

AA has demonstrated far better I could have just why I think there is a hate group at the extreme end of the atheist spectrum. Some part of the atheist community is motivated by the need to feel superior by creating a scape goat among religious people especially Christians. Like the Nazis that segment of atheists use Christianity as the scapegoat on which to pin all the ills of society. That explains the bogus social science approach such as the "Paul study" which tires to say (my misreading statistics) that Christians are morel likely to go to prison. Clearly AA derives a sense of supiriority form his venting of hate and insult. When mocking and derision of others is the basis of one's self esteem we know that one is bound to suffer a miserable life. I do not hate these people, I pity them.

For his own good I pray that AA will find the basis in self esteem based upon the concept that he is loved rather than the ability to mock and deride scape goats. That's the true power of the Gospel. It's based upon the assertion that God is real and God loves each one of us, rather a false sense of supiriority that comes from putting others down.

8 comments:

A Hermit said...

You know I don't substantially disagree with your overall message here; there are idiots on all sides of the argument (I'm not going to get into the specific incident with Arizona Atheist `cause frankly I don;t care that much...), and some atheists are no more thoughtful than religious fundies, but I still have a big problem with this "hate group" stuff.

Someone being rude to you on the internet does not rise to the level of a "hate group". Comparing people who disagree with you, even they aren't particularly articulate or polite about it, to Nazis and racists is absurd. It's a cheap shot, it's mudslinging, and that has a way of getting everyone dirty, including innocent bystanders.

If you feel you must do these long posts rehashing every little insult, perceived or real or whatever, and insulting the intelligence of whatever individual it was that pissed you off today, that's fine; no doubt some of them deserve it and I'm sure it makes you feel better.

But let go of this "hate group" crap. It's not helpful.

J.L. Hinman said...

I know its the internet. But that's also an excuse to dismiss the problem. I'm not saying you are insensitive to the problem. But I do think you are underrating how wides spread it is.

The atheists on the carm the way they treated me and other Christians was clearly organized and totally unfair. It wasn't' a major conspiracy, just a small one. But still very hurtful and unfair. I can show you a doezen atheist boards where this happens everyday.

the things AA was sayings atheists say all the time.

I don't want to go on a big tirade about how abused I am. But just this morning I went on a board I just stared psoting on, a Christain baord that I have not posted on in the past. There were old carm atheists their they started saying the same stuff, ruining my rep there before I even have a chance to do anything to ruin myself.

what they were saying was totally unfair and totally based upon their ignorance. I'm using big words to fool people and I don't really know anything I'm a big liar who never went to college and 'm using big words to trick people ect ect.

any thinking person should be outragged. all they are really saying is if I can out think them and I know things they don't know then I must be allowed to get away with knowing what I know or having an education.

don't you see how badly that sux?

A Hermit said...

"The atheists on the carm the way they treated me and other Christians was clearly organized and totally unfair. It wasn't' a major conspiracy, just a small one. But still very hurtful and unfair. I can show you a doezen atheist boards where this happens everyday."

And the theists on CARM are all angels who treat atheists with deference and respect I suppose? We both know better than that. I recall getting beat up pretty badly on "Sense of the Numinous" by you and your Christian friends. I never thought you all constituted a "hate group..."

Besides, you're not dealing with "the atheists from CARM" here, you're dealing with one individual atheist (apparently from Arizona...) Deal with his comments as you see fit, but don't use them to perpetuate this "hate group" crap.

"just this morning I went on a board I just stared psoting on, a Christain baord that I have not posted on in the past. There were old carm atheists their they started saying the same stuff, ruining my rep there before I even have a chance to do anything to ruin myself."

You ruined your own reputation with your own behaviour. I've regained a certain amount of respect for you lately, but it's always easier to lose people's respect than it is to earn it back. You may have a lot of work to do in that department if you've been as awful to others as you have been to me.

"all they are really saying is if I can out think them and I know things they don't know then I must be allowed to get away with knowing what I know or having an education.

don't you see how badly that sux?"


Sure it sux. But no worse than it sux for me to be constantly told by Christians that I'm immoral, hellbound, unclean, lost, confused, ignorant, spiritually crippled etc. etc. etc.

Some people are ignorant pricks. Always will be. Doesn't ad up to a "hate group." I don't think I'm "underrating" the problem; I do think you are overstating it.

J.L. Hinman said...

you have good points. But it's more than just this one guy. I'm now on theology web, same deal. Of course, some are the same people. it's a trait many of them share.

no theists on carm can be assholes too. Many of them are.

Kristen said...

Hermit, the way I remember the Sense of the Numinous conflict was that a few people made negative comments to you-- and of those who did, not all were Christians. Some were theists or deists, who did not identify themselves as Christians.

It doesn't excuse what anyone said, but it was not Metacrock and his "Christian friends" who attacked you. I'm one of his Christian friends and you know I never said one word that was not respectful.

A Hermit said...

"Hermit, the way I remember the Sense of the Numinous conflict was that a few people made negative comments to you-- and of those who did, not all were Christians. Some were theists or deists, who did not identify themselves as Christians.

It doesn't excuse what anyone said, but it was not Metacrock and his "Christian friends" who attacked you. I'm one of his Christian friends and you know I never said one word that was not respectful."


It wasn't my intention to dredge all this up again, but it absolutely was Metacrock and some of his Christian fiends who went after me. And with all due respect, you didn't see the private messages and e-mails I got from some of these people Kristen...what happened on the boards was mild compared to the behind-the-scenes stuff...

But I never thought of this as a "hate group", just a few individuals behaving badly. Joe overstates the problem, and in effect diminishes the threat of REAL hate groups by using the term to describe a few rude people on the internet.

If you want to find the REAL hate groups, start here: http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp

Loren said...

Metacrock, as to "hate groups", you ought to think of why you were banned from IIDB (now FRDB). It was because of your behavior, not because of any doctrinal grounds.

J.L. Hinman said...

No sweetie pie that is what they want you to think bu they lied. It's because I converted someone.

It happened on the same the person said he was convienced. I had been rude before. they never even came close to doing that. Then they lied about what I said, they lied about what they said, they started an organized campagin to destory my reputation.

atheists are liars. they never understand what they do. they can insult you with any name they wan to call you. they can say "you are a stupid piece of shit" and they never never never admit they were rude or at fault. If you fight back you are a terrible horrible person.

they will gang up on you 20 people to one, and call you all kinds of names and say the stupidest things and the most outrageous things if you fight back you are just horrible.

It's obvious what they are doing. open your eyes and look at it.