Thursday, October 22, 2015

Discussion with Chat pilot

I had a dialogue with him on metacrock's blog:

see the comment section. There's more these are the highlights:

Metacrock said... Chatpilot:...Seriously speaking this is yet another waste of time. You are obviously convinced that you have found the "truth." I on the other hand don't believe in the validity of so called mystical experiences as evidence for the existence of God or gods of any kind.:

Joe Hinman said... :...You don't even know what the argument says. Hey better not look through the telescope it's probably a trick. There can't be mountains on the moon it's too perfect because its a heavenly body. Ho do you explain the fact that there is such a strong correlation between having those experiences and getting your life online?:

Chatpilot:...We are obviously on two different sides of the fence and I can tell you right now that there is no way that you will ever be able to convince me of the truth of your findings with a book and your assertions based on your being convinced by other individuals subjective experiences and bad research and interpretations of that research. I don't know how much more we can say on this issue.:

Joe Hinman said... :...that\'s ok except you are actively trying to proselytize for unbelief and you intimate that my reasons are based on upon some sort of empty emotionalism because you can't except the fact that I have the evidence of science overwhelmingly on my side.:

Chatpilot:......You ask me where is my research. I have plenty but I am sure that you will just continue to force your beliefs upon them and ignore their validity. I graciously bow out of this discussion since I can see that it is nothing more than an exercise in futility.:

Joe Hinman said... :...I put my evidence on the table.where is yours?:

1:23 AM Joe Hinman said... Chatpilot: @Joe Hinman I have read your article on the M scale and the only thing that that proves is that many people across cultures have similar experiences.:

Metacrock: You keep ignoring the fact that religious ideas are culturally bound, so the experiences should not be the dame. At the very least that proves archetypes. No theory explains why the archetypes would make your life dramatically better. That indicates an objective reality and you can't handle the truth. you fear hell.:

Chatpilot:... Not that the Christian God is real nor that any god is real for that matter. It definitely does not defeat the argument that these experiences are superior to that of the brain states as causes of these experiences themselves.:

Metacrock: The research that you allude to does not use a control for religious experience. That means that can't prove their argument! they have no way of proving that they produced religious experiences in the lab.:

Chatpilot: The M scale is nothing more than a queestioneer or survey of people claiming to have had mystical experiences. That is it! It is not scientific at all in fact I would go as far as calling this research pseudo-science and not actual science at all:

Metacrock: Questionnaires are the standard method in sociology and psychology, 80% of what they do. Questionnaires are scientific , why do you think they call sociology and psychology "social sciences?" Of course I know the M scale is a survey if you read that article (you did not) you would know why being a survey doesn't make it any less scientific and why it proves my argument.:

Joe Hinman said... Chatpilot: The fact that in some cases these experiences turn out to be life changing does not prove that God was behind it. NDE's for instance have the same effect on people and often some people need to be shocked into reality by such experiences to realize that they need to make some changes in their lives quickly if they value life at all.:

Metacrock: Not in "some cases" in 80% there's a very strong correlation between having the experience and life transformation. It's not Shocking" it's nice, it's super sense of being loved. It's super peaceful. Nowhere in the lit is it ever correlated with being shocked.:

Chatpilot: One of my neighbors nearly died of a drug overdose. She was found on the brink of death and was in a coma for a few weeks. When she came back from the hospital she stopped using drugs and drinking altogether. I don't think it was god she just had a scare that made her take a closer look at her life and what was important to her. I myself have been an alcoholic for many years and one day I just decided it wasn't worth it and quit cold turkey without god or some mystical experience. My point is that a little self reflection goes a long way. :

Metacrock: It seems you can only relate to God through shocking and making one afraid. That's totally antithetical to the experience. You tried to say you had the experiences I describe, I sure did not describe them like that.:

Araham Maslow, an atheist and major sociologist and psychologist, says of the experience: "The question has to be differentiated still further. There is no doubt that great insights and revelations are profoundly felt in mystic or peak-experiences, and certainly some of these are, ipso facto, intrinsically valid as experiences. That is, one can and does learn from such experiences that, e.g., joy, ecstasy, and rapture do in fact exist and that they are in principle available for the experiencer, even if they never have been before. Thus the peaker learns surely and certainly that life can be worthwhile, that it can be beautiful and valuable. There are ends in life, i.e., experiences which are so precious in themselves as to prove that not everything is a means to some end other than itself."

"...My feeling is that if it were never to happen again, the power of the experience could permanently affect the attitude toward life. A single glimpse of heaven is enough to confirm its existence even if it is never experienced again. It is my strong suspicion that even one such experience might be able to prevent suicide, for instance, and perhaps many varieties of slow self-destruction, e.g., alcoholism, drug-addiction, addiction to violence, etc. I would guess also, on theoretical grounds, that peak-experiences might very well abort "existential meaninglessness," states of valuelessness, etc., at least occasionally. (These deductions from the nature of intense peak-experiences are given some support by general experience with LSD and psilocybin. Of course these preliminary reports also await confirmation. )... ...This then is one kind of peak-knowledge of whose validity and usefulness there can be no doubt, any more than there could be with discovering for the first time that the color "red" exists and is wonderful. Joy exists, can be experienced and feels very good indeed, and one can always hope that it will be experienced again...."

See it's all positive


JBsptfn said...

Which shows that he is interested in an echo chamber only. He didn't really have a valid reason to leave the faith, and he has no right to have a blog to lie about God and support others in that.

JBsptfn said...

Don't know if you saw this, but here's ChatPilot's response:

Quote"This coming from someone whose entire argument for so called warrant for belief is based entirely on an argument from ignorance and poor interpretations of the so called "evidence" and apologetics to boot! You don't even know what faith it is yoiu're defending.

Because having mystical experiences is a worldwide phenomena doesn't mean that it automatically means there is a god. The feelings of oneness with the universe and overwhelming love and peace that passeth all understanding can be obtained through certain forms of Eastern meditations. The so called presence of the divine is also obtainable through meditating on the divine whatever that may mean to you."Quote

Joe Hinman said...

this is coming from the guy who has not read the book, claims to have read the article but blacked at questionnaires being scientific. He doesn't even know enough to be wrong.

Joe Hinman said...

when argument reared it's ugly8 head he bravely turned his tail and fled.

JBsptfn said...

It's official: Now I am done with him. He called me a fundamentalist. I basically said that he is one to talk. He is taking a few verses in Isaiah out of context to make God look hateful, and I am trying to keep it in perspective with the times.

He basically tells me to go away and F*** off, calling me a person who likes to believe in myths and other things like that. There is something wrong with this guy.

Joe Hinman said...

He's not nearly the most formidable opponent. that's way I put up that brave sir Robin thing. I think those guys fear hell but feel committed not to believe. So they have to rationalize hell away by pretending there's no evidence yada yada.