Accelerator said:
Once you stop believing in the soul there are very good reasons to question how much value we should place on human life because it is "human." A human in a vegetative state cannot think, he cannot feel, and he has no desires or emotions. In what sense is he a being worthy of a great deal of ethical respect and not merely a sack of meat? Unless we believe in the soul, and I assume most atheists don't, the belief that he should have rights would probably be based on valuing humans above other species because of human specialness. The problem is that there is no good ethical reason to hold that humans deserve special treatment because they are human, there is nothing about human DNA that entitles you to special ethical consideration. That's why I don't think that humans in a vegetative state are "people" and I have no problem with killing them. I apply this logic to fetuses and newborn infants because they also lack any sort of real consciousness. It's true that they will develop consciousness if left alone, but potentiality shouldn't give them the same rights that we have. That just doesn't make ethical sense.I pointed out that this look like a straightforward admission that atheists don't believe in human rights, at some of them don't.
America
As long as self-style Christian "thinkers" keep coming up with arguments like this, I'll rest assured that atheism is doing quite well.
Big Thinker
Are there any good Christian arguments?
Are there any rational reasons for believing in God? If there are, why do Christians fail to present them -why do they choose to argue this kind of utter, ignorant nonsense?
-just wondering. I mean really, you guys have God on your side, right? You really should have it a little more "together'.
This is the guy whose every argument is "I refuse to believe, therefore, it can't be true." Moreover, the other day he argued "my reasoning is not circular I just start form the premise that can't be any evidence to support existing because God doesn't exist." He's never disappointed about the falsehood of the arguments encounters either.
Accelerator trimmed her statement and qualified it to refer mainly to people in vegetative states. She deneied saying that conscious people can be tortured with impunity and applied the statement above to just people in vegetative states.
Originally Posted by Accelerator
if you actually did the research you imply you did you would know that people do wake up from them, and they have their memeroes and all. did you ever see the movie staring Robin Williams, Awakenings, (1990)
I argued:
IMBd page for the movie awakenings
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099077/
about people in comas for 40 years they wake up when they are given L-dopa (a drug) and they remember their lives. If you had your way they would all be killed, yet all that is in their brains and it could be brought out with the right stimulation.
And of course she mocked and ridiculed the idea of using a movie even though it's a true story and the fact that they woke up is documented.
Accelerator:
The term soul is generally used to refer to the part of us that lives on after death.Meta:
Accelerator:
I don't believe in life after death (at least, not of that sort) so I reject many of the arguments that are based on its existence. The mind does not live on either so this argument fails for the same reason. A fetus does not have mind.Let's see how that works if she had actually read my statement: "I don't believe in life after death so I don't accept the soul is a symbol..." does that makes sense?
Meta
your belief is not a facts. It's beilef. so it's on a par with values. so you are really just saying "my values are more important than your values." but there's no reason why they should be. i see no reason to value your values. Your values are at odds with humanity.
Accelerator:
I think conscious entities are different from unconscious entities. Maybe you should think more critically about arguments before you respond to them.
Meta:
that's not a fact either. that's another value. Show me the scientific data to puts the value in the facts.As we shall see she didn't think critically enough because failed to some basic research about people in vegetative states. Let's look at the basic research she didn't do. 60% of peopl in Vegitative state recover!
Modern Systems Knowledge Translator system, "Facts about vegetative and minimally conscious sattes after Sever Brain Injury."http://www.msktc.org/tbi/factsheets/Vegetative-And-Minimally-Conscious-States-After-Severe-Brain-Injury
Based on Research by TBI Model Systems
research by tbi model systemsThe most severe injuries cause profound disturbance of consciousness. Twenty to 40% of persons with injuries this severe do not survive. Some persons who survive have a period of time of complete unconsciousness with no awareness of themselves or the world around them. The diagnosis given these people depends on whether their eyes are always closed or whether they have periods when their eyes are open. The state of complete unconsciousness with no eye opening is called coma. The state of complete unconsciousness with some eye opening and periods of wakefulness and sleep is called the vegetative state. As people recover from severe brain injury, they usually pass through various phases of recovery. Recovery can stop at any one of these phases.
The
most severe injuries cause profound disturbance of consciousness.
Twenty to 40% of persons with injuries this severe do not survive. Some
persons who survive have a period of time of complete unconsciousness
with no awareness of themselves or the world around them. The diagnosis
given these people depends on whether their eyes are always closed or
whether they have periods when their eyes are open. The state of
complete unconsciousness with no eye opening is called coma. The state
of complete unconsciousness with some eye opening and periods of
wakefulness and sleep is called the vegetative state. As people recover
from severe brain injury, they usually pass through various phases of
recovery. Recovery can stop at any one of these phases. - See more at:
http://www.msktc.org/tbi/factsheets/Vegetative-And-Minimally-Conscious-States-After-Severe-Brain-Injury#sthash.jjwbqCqg.dpuf
The
most severe injuries cause profound disturbance of consciousness.
Twenty to 40% of persons with injuries this severe do not survive. Some
persons who survive have a period of time of complete unconsciousness
with no awareness of themselves or the world around them. The diagnosis
given these people depends on whether their eyes are always closed or
whether they have periods when their eyes are open. The state of
complete unconsciousness with no eye opening is called coma. The state
of complete unconsciousness with some eye opening and periods of
wakefulness and sleep is called the vegetative state. As people recover
from severe brain injury, they usually pass through various phases of
recovery. Recovery can stop at any one of these phases. - See more at:
http://www.msktc.org/tbi/factsheets/Vegetative-And-Minimally-Conscious-States-After-Severe-Brain-Injury#sthash.EuLrcran.dpufafter arguing about it she (Accelerator) retreats into a position that says "I'm only talking about those in vegetative states. They are no longer people and can be killed." Then I did some basic research and showed that 60% of those come out of it. So she would have killed them.
She would be killing 60% of people in these states who would have recovered. she didn't do enough critical thinking.Whatshisface went on a tiraid about my title "atheism is shown to be barbarous" that's just a travestly.
Originally Posted by Whatsisface
It is not misleading. If atheists agree with her position they are barbarous.
Whatsisface
Do you think that if it was proven that there was no soul, you, Joe
Hinman, would go around in a murderous rage? How would your values
change?
Meta
Meta
no one actually said anything about the soul as the basis for human value. So far we had only argued that people are of intrinsic worth because they are human.
Whatsisface
MetaAs I say, all too often murder and torture is committed by people who believe in a soul. Do you disagree?
that's beside the point. when they are called to account we have something to call them on. what if their defense was "I was raised to believe that those who don't produce are not human?"
Whatsisface
Now you left the realm of decent, rational discussion.
Meta
that's nonsense. I've making rational points in every post. you can't answer them so you define them as not rational. so far you have not answered any arguments.
I caught your "side" dis-valuing human life you have the integrity to admit it.
Whatsisface
I'm not sure you have properly understood Accelerator, and you are making wild accusations, which is a little tiresome.
Meta
you are just making excuses for the pack.
The
most severe injuries cause profound disturbance of consciousness.
Twenty to 40% of persons with injuries this severe do not survive. Some
persons who survive have a period of time of complete unconsciousness
with no awareness of themselves or the world around them. The diagnosis
given these people depends on whether their eyes are always closed or
whether they have periods when their eyes are open. The state of
complete unconsciousness with no eye opening is called coma. The state
of complete unconsciousness with some eye opening and periods of
wakefulness and sleep is called the vegetative state. As people recover
from severe brain injury, they usually pass through various phases of
recovery. Recovery can stop at any one of these phases. - See more at:
http://www.msktc.org/tbi/factsheets/Vegetative-And-Minimally-Conscious-States-After-Severe-Brain-Injury#sthash.EuLrcran.dpuf
The
most severe injuries cause profound disturbance of consciousness.
Twenty to 40% of persons with injuries this severe do not survive. Some
persons who survive have a period of time of complete unconsciousness
with no awareness of themselves or the world around them. The diagnosis
given these people depends on whether their eyes are always closed or
whether they have periods when their eyes are open. The state of
complete unconsciousness with no eye opening is called coma. The state
of complete unconsciousness with some eye opening and periods of
wakefulness and sleep is called the vegetative state. As people recover
from severe brain injury, they usually pass through various phases of
recovery. Recovery can stop at any one of these phases. - See more at:
http://www.msktc.org/tbi/factsheets/Vegetative-And-Minimally-Conscious-States-After-Severe-Brain-Injury#sthash.EuLrcran.dpuf
The
most severe injuries cause profound disturbance of consciousness.
Twenty to 40% of persons with injuries this severe do not survive. Some
persons who survive have a period of time of complete unconsciousness
with no awareness of themselves or the world around them. The diagnosis
given these people depends on whether their eyes are always closed or
whether they have periods when their eyes are open. The state of
complete unconsciousness with no eye opening is called coma. The state
of complete unconsciousness with some eye opening and periods of
wakefulness and sleep is called the vegetative state. As people recover
from severe brain injury, they usually pass through various phases of
recovery. Recovery can stop at any one of these phases. - See more at:
http://www.msktc.org/tbi/factsheets/Vegetative-And-Minimally-Conscious-States-After-Severe-Brain-Injury#sthash.EuLrcran.dpu
The
most severe injuries cause profound disturbance of consciousness.
Twenty to 40% of persons with injuries this severe do not survive. Some
persons who survive have a period of time of complete unconsciousness
with no awareness of themselves or the world around them. The diagnosis
given these people depends on whether their eyes are always closed or
whether they have periods when their eyes are open. The state of
complete unconsciousness with no eye opening is called coma. The state
of complete unconsciousness with some eye opening and periods of
wakefulness and sleep is called the vegetative state. As people recover
from severe brain injury, they usually pass through various phases of
recovery. Recovery can stop at any one of these phases. - See more at:
http://www.msktc.org/tbi/factsheets/Vegetative-And-Minimally-Conscious-States-After-Severe-Brain-Injury#sthash.yaamNJbW.
3 comments:
Well, those Atheists on CARM just keep on keepin' on, don't they?
I agree with you about the soul, though. It is the spirit that lives on after death (which, according to the late Arnold Murray of Shepherd's Chapel, is the intellect of the soul).
shepard's chapel? did that guy die?
I agree the spirit is what lives on. I see spirit as mind, not "mind of the soul" but as mind. period.
I see the soul as symbol of life in relation to God; thus talk of lost souls and saved souls.
Yes, Arnold passed away about two months ago:
Shepherd's Chapel
Even though I disagreed with a couple of his views (like the gap theory between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel. I think that the 70 weeks were fulfilled, and that it had nothing to do with the "end times"), he was a real good bible teacher.
Matt Slick of CARM wasn't too pleased with him, though:
CARM: Shepherd's Chapel Teachings
For example, one problem that he has with Arnold is that he doesn't believe in an eternal hell. Arnold did. He was like you and me though in that he didn't believe that it was eternal conscious torment.
He also thinks that Arnold denied the Trinity, which really isn't true.
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