Yes Bizarros do it backwards.This is an apt analogy for
the way most CARM atheists understand social scinece research
methods.
The shameful example of guilt by association and the other fallacies in the previous post are compounded by the
bizarro world fire drill* the atheists use to cover up their lousy logic. Backup tried to find stats to prove the a lot of children die from prayer and neglect by parents who believe God will heal them.
Originally Posted by
backup
Check out some of these shocking stats:
Thirty-eight states and the District of Columbia have religious exemptions in their civil codes on child abuse or neglect
Seventeen states have religious defenses to felony crimes against children
Maryland exemptes believers in spiritual healing from all civil and criminal charges regardless of the harm to the child
Pediatrician Seth Asser and CHILD president Rita Swan have published a
study of 172 deaths of children when medical care was withheld on
religious grounds. They found that 140 of the children would have had at
least a 90% likelihood of survival with medical care.
Between 1973 and 1990, 65 Faith Assembly children are known to have died of treatable illnesses without medical care.
he Oregonian reported that 78 children died between 1955 and 1998 in the
Followers of Christ Church in Oregon City, a church opposed to medical
care.
Sects claiming a religious exemption from immunizations have had
outbreaks of polio, measles, whooping cough, and diphtheria. In 1991
there were 492 measles cases in Philadelphia among children associated
with Faith Tabernacle and First Century Gospel Church, which refuse
immunizations. Six children died.
Oregon and Pennsylvania have religious exemptions from bicycle helmets.
http://childrenshealthcare.org/?page_id=24
DL put up hysterical thread drawing sweeping conclusions form one
episode. Backup tries to support her by supposedly documenting that
Christian bleief "causes" child endangerment on a regular basis.
Let me say first of all that there are problems and they are more than
one example. They are not the norm, they not often produced by
mainstream Christianity even using that term in a broad sense. they are
usually associated with small extremist groups and if we total them they
are not even 1% of the whole. they are much less than 0.1%.
Here is
Backup's big proof.
Originally Posted by backup View Post
Check out some of these shocking stats:
Thirty-eight states and the District of Columbia have religious exemptions in their civil codes on child abuse or neglect
Meta:
(1) those are made for the extremists groups to they don't quash
religious freedom they are not made to accommodate the mainstream.
(2) they are not proof the problem is more than a handful of kids.
granted too many not to write them off but it's not indicative of
Christianity as a whole.
Backup
Seventeen states have religious defenses to felony crimes against children
Meta:
(1) same deal, not proof they didn't make the law to accommodate a small group of extremists.
(2) not proof the problem is widespread.
Backup
Maryland exemptes believers in spiritual healing from all civil and criminal charges regardless of the harm to the child
Meta:
Of cousre that is not proof it's wide spread and it's not proof that
they don't have loop holes. I bet you he hasn't examined them.
Backup
Pediatrician Seth Asser and CHILD president Rita Swan have published
a study of 172 deaths of children when medical care was withheld on
religious grounds. They found that 140 of the children would have had at
least a 90% likelihood of survival with medical care.
90% sounds like a lot but it's of 140 children. So while that's
bad it's a tiny drop in the bucket compared to how many children are in
Christian education, Christan ay care orphans home live with Christian
parents and so on. only a tiny tiny segment come to harm those are
probalby connected to fringe groups. 80% of the country is Christian.
80% of the country is not be charged with child endangerment.
Between 1973 and 1990, 65 Faith Assembly children are known to have died of treatable illnesses without medical care.
Meta
(1) what do they mean by faith assembly? Is that a certain group
or are trying to say "religious people in general?" It sounds to me like
a frenge group like the one in the original example.
(2) that's almost a 20 year period. 65 deaths in 20 years is
pathetically small. not to write off the children's lives. as an
inducement of all religion it's pathetic.
(3) it doesn't' say where/ are these one state the whole country? makes a huge difference.
can you imagine a protest saying "stop the Vietnam war, 65 people have died over the last 20 years."
Backup
The Oregonian reported that 78 children died between 1955 and 1998 in
the Followers of Christ Church in Oregon City, a church opposed to
medical care.
Meta:
(1) Even a broader time period and not many more deaths.
(2) they could include the 65 mentioned above.
(3) even assuming state by state a comparable number from every state is
not enough to prove that Christianity as a general rule causes abuse.
Backup
Sects claiming a religious exemption from immunizations have had
outbreaks of polio, measles, whooping cough, and diphtheria. In 1991
there were 492 measles cases in Philadelphia among children associated
with Faith Tabernacle and First Century Gospel Church, which refuse
immunizations. Six children died.
Meta:
"sects!" usually a group is not called a "sect" by the media
unless it's a small fringe group. So this is talking about extremists
not the main stream. the allowances they get are to prevent squashing
freedom not because the main stream of Christianity is regularity
hurting kids.
How many states? what is the rate per state?
Backup
(1) that could be based upon 2 people. They passed the law because 2 people died.
(2) may have been passed by secular legislators who just used that as a loop hole.
(3) how many religious sects have taboos against wearing helmets?
"ney brother, Mercury and the original flash wore helmets therefore we dare not wear one!"
If we total all the deaths sites over 20 year period it's hardly 300
people. If we even grant 65 per state per year it's not enough to
conclude that religion as whole is to blame.
Now Steve wants to connect this to the belief in healing. how many Christians in America believe God heals today?
the stats on harm do not keep pace with stats on belief.
this is a quote from an article: AARP had poll done
http://www.aarp.org/personal-growth/...racles_08.html
"The purpose of this study was to understand what Americans age 45 and
older think about miracles and miraculous events, including what they
believe about divine healings, guardian angels, the circumstances under
which someone may receive a miracle, and how miraculous events have
changed their outlook on life. The information was gathered to inform
articles for AARP The Magazine and AARP Viva.
The July 2008 telephone survey included a Hispanic oversample. Key findings include:
Four in five survey respondents (80%) say they believe that miracles
occur today as in ancient times, while 67% say they believe that
illnesses and injuries can be divinely healed.
Respondents age 45-54 were more likely to believe in miracles (85%) than those age 55 and older (77%).
Over a third (37%) say they have witnessed a miracle, 29% have witnessed a divine healing, and 11% have seen an angel.
When asked what makes someone worthy of receiving a miracle, having
faith (73%), prayer (67%), and strength of desire (55%) are seen by the
majority to be determining factors.
Unsurprisingly, God (84%) and Jesus (75%) were the two figures
respondents rated highest in bestowing miracles. Only 47% thought angels
bestowed miracles.
A strong majority of Hispanics report believing in miracles (86%),
spirits and angels (86%), and divine healings (82%), significantly more
than white non-Hispanics.
Hispanics are just as likely as white non-Hispanics to say they are
religious or spiritual. However, when asked about the frequency in which
they engage in religious activities, Hispanics are more likely to say
they pray, share their faith with others, and watch or listen to
religious programming on a weekly basis than white non-Hispanics.
Questions were included on an omnibus survey on July 17-21, 2008, a
weekly national telephone survey of U.S. households, conducted by
Opinion Research Corporation (ORC). The survey was conducted with 1,315
respondents age 45 and older. In addition to the general population
survey, ORC conducted a Hispanic oversample July 16-23, 2008, with 251
respondents age 45 and older. (47 pages)
way more people believe in healing than ever come to harm. We are
talking about mass numbers of people in the millions and only about 300
harmed in 20 year period.
Originally Posted by
leyman
Regardless of the numbers, it's the cause, Meta, the cause.
Yes, religious conversion results in positive outcomes in certain individuals, such as yourself.
In other individuals it results in the needless deaths of innocent children.
Without religion you probably would have worked through your own issues in time all on your own.
And those dead children would not have been killed for the sake of their parent's faith in their religion.
Meta:
this is a crime against reason. you cannot pretend to think
scientifically then throw out the evidence and act emotion. you hate
religion so you are willing to believe it' bad most of them. the numbers
prove you are wrong but you make an arbitrary dogmatic appeal to throw
them out.
*that source may not actually explain how the bizarros do fire drills they may never have had one but it's obvious they would run back into the burning building, or perhaps even add fuel to the fire. Thee joke of the Bizarro world (which I was never that amused by) was that they do everything backwards.
See and read an actual bizzaro story.
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