The M scale (mysticism scale) is a method for determining weather or not one has had a personified mystical experience. It was invented by Dr. Ralph Hood Jr. of University of Tennessee Chattanooga. That's a secular university and Hood is a psychologist not a Christian and not a minister. The M scales gives us validty for religous experience because it enables us to know if one has really had one or is just "wool gathering." This means we now have a control for the experience so we can study it's effects. The M scale was developed in the early 70s and was re-developed in the 80s with what is called "the three part solution. " It's been used since that time and has become one of the standard procedures. Hood is a big name in his field.
Dale Cairdoriginally in journal for the Scientific study of religion 1988, 27 (1) 122-126
Research into mystical experience has been greatly facilitated over the last decade by Hood (1975). Utilizing the conceptual framework of Stace (1960) he devised a 32 item questionnaire tapping eight categories of mysticism. This questionnaire the M scale was shown by Hood to have respectable internal consistency and reasonable construct validity.
Michael E. Nielsen, Ph.D.Georgia Southern University
feb 2000
Ralph Hood (1998), a major figure in American psychology of religion, suggests six psychological schools of thought regarding religion. The psychoanalytical schools draw from the work of Freud, and attempt to reveal unconscious motives for religious belief. Although Freud reduced religious belief to a natural, if ultimately flawed, attempt to cope with life's stresses, contemporary psychoanalytic interpretations are not necessarily hostile to religious faith. Analytical schools find their inspiration in Jung's description of spiritual life. Most psychologists, however, consider such descriptions to be undemonstrated by scientific research, and therefore it plays a limited role in psychology. Object relations schools also draw from psychoanalysis, but focus their efforts on maternal influences on the child. Each of these three schools rely on clinical case studies and other descriptive methods based on small samples, which runs counter to the prevailing practice of psychology in America.
Modern social scientific evidence does not refute the possibility that some mystical experiences are associated with scientifically unknown processes. Parapsychologists have accumulated a body of evidence supporting belief in paranormal phenomena (Broughton 1992). Even though their evidence has been criticized, the existence of universal features within collections of mystical experience accounts supports the argument that some forms of these perceptions are not fully cultural products but have important impacts on religious belief (Hufford 1982, McClenon 1994)
nevertheless this doesn't stop the carm atheists from slandering him.
Originally Posted by MFFJM2 View Post
The M-scale is a joke that purports to measure and determine the validity of transcendental experiences.
Deist: "the M scale is a joke, it's childish and laughable.
Of course these are people who have never read a single word about it.
One of the major issues has been weather or not a study done by surveying respondents can be valid. I quote sources to show that most social scinece research is done this way.
1) the no 1 major research mechanism in social science is written answers to pre conceived questions on a survey, studies, survey questions asked of respondents. that's how it's done! that's the 99% most used way of doing it. it's accepted ti's scientific there's unscientific about it.
http://www.gesis.org/veranstaltungen...summer-school/GESIS-Summer School Survey Methodology
9-25 August 2012, Cologne, Germany
Objectives
Surveys are the main method of systematic data collection in the Social Sciences. Surveys provide empirical data for researchers to analyse, and are an important source of information for business, charities and policy makers. There are numerous types of surveys suited for different purposes. Given the variety and complexity of survey research, designing and conducting a survey that effectively and efficiently serves a specific purpose requires specialised expertise and skill (as well as a good team). The GESIS Summer School offers high quality training in state of the art techniques and methods of survey research. It aims to equip participants with essential skills in the design, planning, execution, documentation and quality assurance of surveys of households, individuals or organisations
writing guide Colorado State U.
http://writing.colostate.edu/guides/research/survey/Surveys represent one of the most common types of quantitative, social science research. In survey research, the researcher selects a sample of respondents from a population and administers a standardized questionnaire to them. The questionnaire, or survey, can be a written document that is completed by the person being surveyed, an online questionnaire, a face-to-face interview, or a telephone interview. Using surveys, it is possible to collect data from large or small populations" (sometimes referred to as the universe of a study).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survey_samplingStatistical survey is a method used to collect in a systematic way, information from a sample of individuals. Although most people are familiar with public opinion surveys that are reported in the press, most surveys are not public opinion polls (such as political polling), but are used for scientific purposes. Surveys provide important information for all kinds of research fields, e.g., marketing research, psychology, health professionals and sociology.[1] A survey may focus on different topics such as preferences (e.g., for a presidential candidate), behavior (smoking and drinking behavior), or factual information (e.g., income), depending on its purpose. Since survey research is always based on a sample of the population, the success of the research is dependent on the representativeness of the population of concern (see also sampling (statistics) and survey sampling).
There is no way they could lie the M scale into validating the words of Stace. What they would have to do to do that is to have read Stace, to know that Hood's scale is about validating Stace, they would have to want to give the wrong information to validate Stace in a bogus fashion, and enough of them would have to want this to do it, in other words an organized movement. The studies were duplicated in Japan, Iran, India, Sweden and other such places. Since Stace has never been translated into those languages and the peasants in Iran for example would have never heard of him (Christian philosopher form UK) why would hey do that. Stace's theory is too complex to just accidentally validate by lying.
To prove this I made up my own survey. My sruve was much more simple than Hoods. It was a one factor analysis. I had 10 questions. six of them were white rabbits and four were about real mystical experience as Underhill discusses it. The object was to validate Underhill. If anyone got the right four questions and these were obviously about mystical experience, anyone with a brain could know which four to answer if they were even thinking about it, would be scored to validate. The misleading questions were designed to make them think I was seeking to validate Pentecostalism. It worked brilliantly. They call assumed that and one answers all four of the mystical questions, although some did get three of them. It's also obvious they were lying about their experiences becuase that was part of the test (they were instructed, lie your way into validating what I"m after).
Bigthinker (so called)
It makes the point that your questionnaire is nonsense. There is nothing objective about it. Your "correct" answers are arbitrary. Meta, its nonsense.
The most important thing is that "mystic" is a meaningless term. Basically, what you are saying is that a person who correctly answers the questions is a real mystic... So what? Outside of your belief system it is meaningless.
you just proved you don't understand any of it. you don't get what it's about at all.
The M scale is about verifying weather or not Stace was right. what did Stace say? He said that mystics are people who experience cert ian things. let's call them x,y,and Z. if you want to know if people have experienced this what do you do> do you tell them You experienced this. "No you have to ask them, see.
that' not self fulfilling they don't have to say it.
you say "did you experience x,y and z they don't have to say "yes I did." they can say "no." It' open ended. not self fulfilling.
but the problem is people suspect "O they are lying." The answer is they can't lie in the right way to validate Stace becasue to do that they would have to answer a series of things exactly right and the odds re vastly agaisnt it.
I proved that this works. I constructed a much much simpler version. the people taking my test have (a) heard me talk about mysticism for years (b) know they are suppose to try and guess in such a way as to validate Underhill and they they could not do it.
So that proves that you can't lie your way to validating Stace on the M scale, which is much more complex than my thing.
The highest possible score is 60. That's because certain questions have no value. There are some questions that if you get them in the right sequence you get 60 and if you only get some of them you don't the mathematical equivalent. in other words if you got all four you get 60 regardless of what else you said but individually they only amount to 10 each. I'll explain why in a minute.
If you get over 40 and up this means you are a real mystic. If get a certain question you are an advanced mystic.
the study used the theory of Evelyn Underhill about the nature of mysticism. I said up front I was going to use a different one than Stace.
so we can remember the questions:
(1) have you had an experience in which you felt yourself as one with all things?
(2) I have had an experience in which everything seemed to disappear from my mind until I was conscious only of a void.
(3) have you ever had dreams about God?
(4) have you ever had a dream in which you saw Jesus or an angel and he told you something?
(5) Do you speak in a language you didn't understand?
(6) Have you ever felt God was very far away and/or didn't exist, and life seemed black and hopeless, after a period of intense religious and spiritual progress in which things seemed revealed to you?
(7) Have you ever heard of voice speaking to you abut god when you were awake?
(8) I have experienced profound joy.
(9) I have experienced a sense of presence as though someone was looking at me, when no one was there, and a sense of being cleaned all over and loved.
(10) have never had an experience which I was unable to express adequately through language.
the answers atheists gave on my testquestions 3,4,5 and 7 are wroth 0. They were red herrings put there to create the wrong impression and get off so they wouldn't understand what I was doing.
Backup had the right general idea but he fell for the red herring becuase he though I'm a so stupid it would easy to guess. He said I was measuring Pentecostalism becuase I mentioned tongues. that's what I wanted him to think. Although I didn't make that with him in mind. I figured someone would grab on to that and think that's what I was doing.
These are dummy questions because they are not mystical experience at all. They are marked by the use of phrases that denote that they are not mystical. Mystical means beyond word, thought, or image. These questions all entail the five senses.
Deists original statement, the reason for all this, was that anyone who prays and goes to chruch and thinks he's spiritual would score high. I know if Deist had the guts to take hte test, which he didn't, he would have answered "yes" to those questions becuase he refuses to think about the meaning of the concepts. He thinks any old dream or whatever is "spiritual" and that's all mysticism is just fake ideas about things. So he would say yes to those and get 0.
question 6 was very special.
(6) Have you ever felt God was very far away and/or didn't exist, and life seemed black and hopeless, after a period of intense religious and spiritual progress in which things seemed revealed to you?
that is the dark night of the soul. Thea's a special thing that marks the path of an advanced mystic. The Dark night of the soul is described ST. John of the Cross as is taken to be a the mark of extreme advancement such as saints undergo. Underhill writes about it so I included it. The questions assumes you are already an advance mystic:"after a period of intense religious and spiritual progress in which things seemed revealed to you?" that describes a mystical career already advanced.
There's nothing like that on the M scale. on my thing, I was feeling cocky I included this chance to win with one question but it doesn't prove anything.
if you said yes to 6 you get the 60 points automatically. no one did.
A couple of people got 3 of the four meaningful questions. no one got them all. because if anyone had said all four tether they would have been given the 60 points.
1,2,9,10 as well as 6 relate directly to mystical experience. the question. anyone getting all four of those is automatically in the mystical range. Then question 8 is wroth 10 points by itself and can add to the mystical score once you are in that range.
what all of this proves is that Deist could not do a serious test and value the questions seriously and score it correctly and make a high score by second guessing what the researcher is after.
he proved this by not trying.
the mocking the version that Backup made is not anymore than the little childish glee they feelings from mocking and ridicule. proves nothing.
Origninal statment that his mock test doesn't prove anything.
Posted by
backup 
I think it does.
Of cousre you do. because you don't care about facts or logic.
Anyway, it is obvious not atheist would read beyond "(6) Have you ever felt God was..." before answering no.
Yes, but that proves atheists are stupid. they figure out this is research. It's not pinon it's not a debate it' a research project to determine hat percentage of anyone has had these exerciser. the issue was to determine the validity of Stace's ideas about mysticism not to give atheist a producer for mocking and bullying.
get your head out of the emotion of the moment try once to think analytically. if the questions are research then you can't contribute by making pronouncements about them. that doesn't' prove anything. the only thing that proves anything is the research findings.
All of this is bogus. Particularly calling someone a mystic if they have had a peak experience. So much of religious talk seems to be a disingenuous use of words. It seems like such an obvious trick to use words filled with so much baggage.
that's an ignorant opinion that's based upon not knowing anything about it. stop your ignorant tirade and answer logical. why is that so dumb to call someone a mystic if they fit the prediction of what mystics are like?
so puerile
here's Deist's argument when he finally showed up after his comrades did all the heavy lifting.
Originally Posted by
Deist This wasn't the M Scale, unless you contend that it
Of course it wasn't! I told you that. It's must simpler. If you can't lie your way to acing this one you sure couldn't do it on the m scale. qualifies because the person who made it up, Meta, has the same first initial as the scale, and it is is therefore the "M"eta scale. Who was the judge of what qualifies as being a mystic on your survey questions? You!? Does that mean I can make up a deist scale, and decide on my own who is a deist? How about an atheist scale? Perhaps a muslim scale.
what!??? good God!
The whole thing about the test in the first place is that it's a farce. There are humans who have nothing better to do that study religiosity (Do that get paid for that nonsense?), who make the rules and guidelines for what qualifies as mystic, and then give the survey to people across the globe, and are mystified that everyone that professes a belief in God answers many of the questions the same!!
what you are saying is you don't have to take the test to see if I can prove Im right because you already know in advance I can't be merely becuase it's religion and religion stinks. the evdience I offer proves that it doesn't but you don't have to look becuase it doesn't matter what the evidence says right?
so in other words you have to be right because you are you? you can't see how this is circular?
What a scoop!! Call the NY Times, the LA Times, CNN, Fox News, Rush Limbaugh. Stop the presses!!We have a big story coming up. A revelation so earth shattering that it will boggle your mind.
ahahahaahahahh it's so hilarious you don't understand you just proved my point further that don't know a circular argument form a logically valid one.
"PSST, hey kid, over here, Have I got a scoop for you. People in different parts of the country who believe in God give the same answers!!!! Can you imagine that!"
EXTRA!! EXTRA! READ ALL ABOUT IT!! GOD BELIEVERS SAY THE SAME STUFF!! EXTRA!! EXTRA!!
ahahahahaahahaha this guy he loves to make a fool of himself! what do you say to guy who thinks he's scored a prefect victory by arguing in a circle?
answers on my my test
