Sunday, May 29, 2016

New Atheist vs Realk Historian part 2

 
 
Continued from last time. I answered for  James (an obvious answer) he starts from there.

    1. Thanks for that. Here's what I wrote about the Index a very long time ago:
      http://bede.org.uk/historyessays.htm

      But I recall it was first promulgated in 1559 during the counter reformation. So I am not sure if it helps us on the Middle Ages which, I thought, was what we were talking about. Certainly, it is the subject of my book, the review of which you posted above.

      In any case, we seem to be stuck on the counter-reformation Catholic Church rather than Christianity in general. Besides, if we are to get the complete picture on Catholicism and science we also need to consider that the Church was providing plenty of support for science, probably more than any other institution in financial terms. For example, John Heilbron's book, The Sun in the Church, sets out the way the Church bankrolled highly detailed astronomical observations over a long period which benefitted all astronomers. Likewise, the Jesuits were the leading scientific organisation in Europe, publishing thousands of papers including about a third of everything published on electricity and magnetism in the 18th century.

      Best wishes

      James
    2. James,

      But I recall it was first promulgated in 1559 during the counter reformation. So I am not sure if it helps us on the Middle Ages which, I thought, was what we were talking about
    IMS
    - I don't know about you, but I was talking about the fallacies being pushed by religious apologists. The repression of science was one of the things I discussed in my OP. And regardless of how you spin it, the Index included scientists like Kepler, Copernicus, Galileo and others.


     

    Meta: yes the real historian from Cambridge is just spinning it the new atheist ideologue from the inertnet is telling it like it is. ;-z

    Dr. Hannam
    In any case, we seem to be stuck on the counter-reformation Catholic Church rather than Christianity in general.



    IMS
    - For a long time, Christianity WAS the Catholic church. If they had their way, they'd still be the only game in town, and we'd still be in the dark ages.

    Dr. Hannam
    the Church bankrolled highly detailed astronomical observations over a long period which benefitted all astronomers.


    IMS
    - This was the single biggest contribution to science that can be attributed to the church (as I have noted). It was motivated primarily by the desire to keep an accurate calendar of religious holidays
    .
    Dr. Hannam
    Jesuits were the leading scientific organisation in Europe, publishing thousands of papers including about a third of everything published on electricity and magnetism in the 18th century.


    IMS
    - As long as there was no challenge to church dogma. They weren't too happy about Franklin's lightening rod.



    Meta: going to have to prove that, I don't recall any religious criticism. no real persecution. howv cares about mere criticism?
     
    1. Joe(,Meta):

      The sources quoted by IMS and his friends are not very good. He is decades behind understanding where modern historians currently are in thinking ab out this rise of science and it's relationship with Christianity. Historians don't think in terms of periods as much, They don't think of the Renaissance as a period but as movement, They don['t guy into the atheist narrative of Renaissance as be awaking the evil dark age of religion.
    IMS
    - If you only pay attention to Christian apologetic sources, your view of history will always be distorted. And you have the gall to call me biased.


     Meta: are you really that stupid? you do not have the slightest idea what is involved in a Ph,d do you I was in a secular program and w]so was Hannam. I'll put my learning up against yours any day,.Have you ever read anything that's not on a n  atheist web site,?

    Terullian was not a ruler. His reasons for opposing anatomical research was not to stop science. How many people doing it then understand why they were doing it?

    IMS
    - His reason for banning anatomical study was purely religious. And it did impede science, whether or not that was his intention.

    Meta:
    Newton was major part of my dissertation I know well he was devout. Being Aryan doesn't change that. no reason why Aryans could not be devout. They still believed in God so they could be. Newton should be an embarrassment to atheists except atheists are just anti-Christian.

    IMS
    - So he's on your team or he's not, depending on what point you are trying to argue. I've had several discussions with Christians who insist that you can't be a Christian without accepting the trinity dogma.

    Meta:
    Copernicus and Galileo were not at Charter which is in France not Italy, .James answered those two. your ignorance about Chartres (not Charter) is so telling. It was a cathedral; it was also a major center of scientific alarming.


    IMS
    - Arguing with you is like trying to catch a greased pig. I didn't say Galileo or Copernicus were at Chartres (not Charter). You're the one who brought that up. I was just responding to your constant deviations from the topic of discussion. Your reading comprehension is atrocious.

    Meta:
    No they did not, that is extremely ignorant. They lost it. they fell; by the time they fell they were Christian. Remember Constantine?


    IMS
    - Yes. Constantine was the murderer who took over power in the 4th century and forced Christianity on the people of Europe. And when did the decline of the Roman empire begin? If I recall my history, it was the 4th century.

     
    Meta: so? Stalin was the murdering atheist who murdered milliohms  used  it to put new zest into the empire. More importantly your tirade is irrelevant. that doesn't not answer the point that you can't use Pagasn Rome for all of Roman history,
     
    now because you make this crack check out two bibliographies from papers I wrote im graduate school. None of them are apologetics the one's that are Christin to any degrees I'll put asterisk by
     
    IMS
    - If you only pay attention to Christian apologetic sources, your view of history will always be distorted. And you have the gall to call me biased.
     
    these are not even a small fraction of my Bib for the dissertation .I read these books and I researched this many books every couple of weeks in those years. Bib for my dos was 20-pages. both topics were religion and science so there have  to be some religious books.
     
     

     *Augustine. The City of God. translated Henry Bettenson. Penguin Books, 1972. This edition 1984.
    Bingen, Hildegard von. Hildegard of Bingen's Book of Divine Works: With Letters and Songs. ed.
     
    Matthew Fox. Sante Fe, New Mexico: Bear and Company inc. 1987.

     Brooke, John Hedley. Science And Religion: Some Historical Perspectives. The cambridge history of Sciences Series. Cambridge, New York: Cambridge University Press, 1991.

     Charlton, D. G. New Images of The Natural: A Study In European Cultural History, 1750-1800. The Gifford Lectures, London: Cambridge University Press, 1884.

     Chenu, Marie-Dominique. Nature, Man, Society in The Twelfth Century. Wehic Press, 1979.
    D'Alembert, Preliminary Discourse to the Encyclopedia of Diderot. Trans. Richard Swab. The library of liberal arts series, Bobbs Merrill company, 1963.

     *Dante. The Divine Comedy. Trans. Lawrence Binyon, ed. Paolo Miano, New York: Viking Press, 1947.

     *Fairweather, Eugene R. "Christianity and The Supernatural," in New Theology Number One. Martin E. Marty and Dan G. Peerman, ed., New York: The Macmillian Company, 1964.

     Fontenelle, Bernard le Bovier. On The Plurality Of Worlds. trans. H. A. Hargraves. Berkeley: University of California press, 1990.

     Grant, Edward. "Science and Theology in The Middle Ages," in God and Nature: Historical Essays ON The Encounter Between Christianity and Science. ed. David Lindberg and Ronald L. Numbers., Berkeley: University of California Press, 1986.

     *Inge, William Ralph. Christian Mysticism. the famous Bampton Lectures, Oxford, 1899, New York: Meredian, Living Age Books, 1956, second printing, 1960.

     L Ladurie, LeRoy. "Introduction," Montaillou: Promised Land of Error. trans. Barbara Bray, New York: George Braziller, Inc. 1978 (American pub. date, originally 1975).

     Lindberg, David "Science and The Early Church," in Lindberg, Op. Cit. . Science In the Middle Ages. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1978.

     Lovejoy, Arthor O. The Great Chain of Being: The History of An Idea. The William James lecture 1833, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1934. This edition 13th printing 1976.

     Lloyd, Genevieve. The Man of Reason: "Male" and "Female" in Western Philosophy. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 1984.

     *Marcus, R. A. Christianity In The Roman World. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1974.
    Pelikan, Jaroslav. The Christian Tradition: A History of The Development of Doctrine. The Growth of Medieval Theology (600-1300). Vol. III. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1978.

     Ruther, Rosemary Radord. Sexism in God-Talk: Toward a Feminist Theology. Boston: Beacon Press, 1983.

     *Scheeben, Mathias Joseph. Nature And Grace. trans. Cyril Vollert, ST. Louis:Herder Book Company, 1954 (originally 1856).

     Schiebenger, Londa. The Mind Has No Sex? Women in The Origins of Modern Science. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1989.

     *Tanner, Kathryn. God and Creation In Christian Theology: Tyranny or Empowerment. Basil Blackwell, 1988.

     *Tillich, Paul. A History of Christian Thought. ed. Carl Bratten. New York: Simmon and Schuster, 1968.

     Westfall, Richard. Science and Religion in Seventeenth Century England.

     Ann Arbor paperbacks: University of Michigan Press, 1973 (originally, 1958).

     Willey, Basil. The Seventeenth Century Background: STudies in The Thought of The Age In Relation to Poetry and Religion. London: Chatto and Windus, 1934, seventh impression, 1957.

     White, Lynn. "The Roots of Our Ecological Crisis," in Machina Ex Deo: Essays in The Dynamism of Western Culture. Cambridge, Massachusetts: MIT Press, 1968.


    this is for another paper there might be some over lap


    Fuchs, Stephan. The Professional Quest for Truth: A social Theory of Science and Knowledge. State University of New York Press, 1992.

    Gay, Peter.
    The Enlightenment: The Rise of Modern Paganism. New York: W.W. Norton & co. 1966.

    Hacking, Ian.
    The Emergence of Probability: A Philosophical Study of Early Ideas about Probability, Induction, and Statistical Inference. London: Cambridge University Press, 1975.

    Jacob, Margaret C.
    The Newtonians and the English Revolution: 1689-1720. Ithica New York: Cornell University Press, 1976.

    James, William,
    The Varieties of Religious Experience.

    Lukes, Steven. "On the Social Determination of Truth,"
    Modes of Thought: Essays on Thinking in Western and Non-Western Societies. ed. Robin Horton and Ruth Finnegan. London: Faber & Faber, 1973.

    Kuhn, Thomas S.
    The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Second edition, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1970 (originally 1962).

    Popkin, Richard H.
    The History of Skepticism From Erasmus To Spinoza. Berkeley, Los Angeles, London: University of California Press, revised edition, 1979 (original 1948).

    Editor. "Introduction,"
    The Philosophy of The 16th and 17th Centuries. gen. ed. Paul edwards and Richard Popkin. New York: The Free Press, Div. of Macmillon, 1966.

    Shapin, Steven.
    A Social History of Truth: Civility and Science in Seventeenth Century England. Chicago and London: University of Chicago Press, 1994.

    Shapin, Steven and Simon Schaffer.
    Leviathan And The Air Pump: Hobbes, Boyle, and the Experimental Life. Princeton University Press, 1985.

    Stout, Jeffrey.
    The Flight From Authority: Religion, Morality, and The Quest For Autonomy. Notre Dame, London: University of Notre Dame Press, 1981.

    Redwood, John.
    Reason, Ridicule, And Religion: The Age of Enlightenment In England 1660-1750. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1976

    *Willey, Basil.
    The Eighteenth Century Background: Studies On the Idea of Nature In the Thought of the Period. New York: Columbia University Press, 1941.



     

    2 comments:

    JBsptfn said...

    That was funny. And, Stan is right: IMS is beyond help at this stage.

    Joe Hinman said...

    he wouldn't seem so stupid if he wasn't closed minded.