Showing posts with label presence of God. Show all posts
Showing posts with label presence of God. Show all posts

Wednesday, March 2, 2016

The God Disproving Industry


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A.K. Willard




There is a huge Industry based upon seeking to disprove Christianity,. It's a subset of valid academic research. No it's not a conspiracy but it's atheistic academics taking advantage of the scholarly publication industry to manufacture atheist propaganda. That would be fine except the studies they produce are marked by bad methodology. On Monday we saw a couple of  examples of these bad studies; the methodology of the study by Amitai Shenhav was putrid  ( the one about belief in God is magical thinking). [1]  Another study mentioned in the article  was done by A.K. Willard and A. Norenzayan, I'll be examining that study here along with another one by the same team.Those two are associated with a large body of badly done studies. They themselves specialized in this sort of ideological attempt to disprove the validity of religious belief. For example their study that supposedly finds that a feeling of God;s presence is reducible to a natural psychological survival mechanism.



Some studies have explored questions about brain function and the texture or mechanics of mystical experience. Van Elk et al find that the sensation of supernatural presence is an adaptation from the need to over-detect presences of predictors in the jungle.[2] In other words if one sets out on a jungle trail, and there is darkness, sensing a predictor and turning back from the trek would be helpful. If the sensation was wrong and there was no predictor the mistake of being wrong would be less graven that of being right but ignoring the sense. Thus, the sensation of presence is selected for. This might be used by a skeptic to answer the argument from mystical experience. Elk has five experiments that that seek to explore weather processing concepts about supernatural agents enhances detection in the environment.


Participants were presented with point light stimuli representing kinds of biological motion, or with pictures of faces embedded in a noise mask. Participants were asked to indicate if the stimuli represented a human agent or not. In each case they used three “primes,” one for supernatural, one for human, one for animal. They found that supernatural primes facilitated better agent detection.[3] The argument is that the perceived presence of agents in threatening situations and tendencies to anthropomorphizing leads stronger belief in ghosts, demons, angels, gods and other “supernatural” agency.[4] They point to a body of work consisting of several studies showing that particular paranormal beliefs are a reliable predictor of illusory perceptions of faces and agency detection. These studies include Willard and Norenzayan (2013), Reikki et. al. (2013), and Petrican and Burris (2012).[5] “[Al]...though these studies provide tentative support for the relation between agency detection and supernatural beliefs, the notion that reigious beliefs are a byproduct of perceptual biases to detect patterns and agency has been challenge by several authors...” (Bulbulia, 2004, Lisdorf 2007, and McKay and Efferson, 2010).[6]


While it may be true that some aspects of mystical experience are genetically related, and may be related to agent detection, that is no proof that mystical experience originates wholly within a naturalistic and genetic framework. First, because these studies only demonstrate a correlation between supernatural beliefs and agency detection. There is no attempt to establish the direction of a causal relationship. If there is a connection between supernatural and agent detection it could as easily be that awareness of supernatural concepts makes one more sensitive to agent detection. Secondly, of course just being genetically related doesn't reduce the phenomenon wholly to genetic endowments. Thirdly, there is a lot more to mystical experience than agent detection. Both involve sensing a presence beyond that point the differences are immense. I am not even sure that facial recognition and sensing a predator are similar enough to count for anything. In sensing being observed one is not usually aware of visual ques as one would be in facial recognition. There's no guarantee that the quality of the sensing is the same. Feeling the divine presence is much more august and involves levels and textures. Such an experience is, overall, positive, life changing, transformational (even noetic) but merely feeling one is being observed could be creepy, negative, or even trivial.


Every study I have seen by Ara Norenzayan appears to be an attempt to disprove the validity or Religious belief. He did one called, "Cognitive biases explain religious belief, paranormal belief, and belief in life’s purpose," [7] in which he uses many of the same approaches used in the magical thinking study:
Cognitive theories of religion have postulated several cognitive biases that predispose human minds towards religious belief. However, to date, these hypotheses have not been tested simultaneously and in relation to each other, using an individual difference approach. We used a path model to assess the extent to which several interacting cognitive tendencies, namely mentalizing, mind body dualism, teleological thinking, and anthropomorphism, as well as cultural exposure to religion, predict belief in God, paranormal beliefs and belief in life’s purpose. Our model, based on two independent samples (N = 492 and N = 920) found that the previously known relationship between mentalizing and belief is mediated by individual differences in dualism, and to a lesser extent by teleological thinking. Anthropomorphism was unrelated to religious belief, but was related to paranormal belief. Cultural exposure to religion (mostly Christianity) was negatively related to anthropomorphism, and was unrelated to any of the other cognitive tendencies. These patterns were robust for both men and women, and across at least two ethnic identifications. The data were most consistent with a path model suggesting that mentalizing comes first, which leads to dualism and teleology, which in turn lead to religious, paranormal, and life’s-purpose beliefs. [8]

Intent of disproof seen here:

Religion is an important part of the lives of billions of people around the world, and a cross culturally recurrent aspect of minds and cultures. Over the past decade, several theories have emphasized the natural basis of religious belief and experience, found in cognitive biases that are byproducts of brain functions (Atran & Norenzayan, 2004; Barrett, 2000, 2004; Bloom, 2007; Boyer, 2001, 2008; Kelemen, 2004). These theories converge on suggesting that belief in supernatural agents such as gods and spirits, and related phenomena, emerge from a set of interrelated cognitive biases, such as perceptions of agency and mentalizing, mind-body dualism, and teleological intuitions. Equipped with these cognitive biases, human minds gravitate towards religious and religious-like beliefs and intuitions.[9]
He is treating conceptual philosophical ideas as though they are determined by brain functions with the implication they are glitches. It's not a philosophical idea to be reasoned about but a mistake a misfire a primitive cognitive ability that has grown obsolete. This is just the ideological reaction to counter ideas. Here is the proof. Dualism is a philosophical idea.[10] Here he treats it like primitive cognitive ability:
1.2.2. Dualism Another hypothesized cognitive foundation of religious belief is mind-body dualism, which refers to the intuition that minds are separate from bodies (Bloom, 2005; Damasio, 1994). According to this theory, minds are seen as a non-physical substance that can be related to bodies, but not reliant on bodies, opening up the 380 A.K. Willard, A. Norenzayan / Cognition 129 (2013) 379–391 possibility of minds existing without bodies. In a sense, the ability to think dualistically is a necessary condition for understanding concepts such as ghosts and spirits or any other disembodied supernatural agent (Bloom, 2007). [11]

Here he implies that mind itself is just such a primitive cognitive function."Consistent with this, neuro-imaging studies found that among Christian believers in the US (Kapogiannis et al., 2009) and in Denmark (Schjoedt et al., 2009), thinking about or praying to God, activates brain regions associated with Theory of Mind." Here he is still harping on teleogy as he did in the magical study:


1.2.3. Teleology A third cognitive hypothesis is that religious beliefs are rooted in teleology. Teleology is the tendency to see things in the world as having a purpose and having been made for that purpose (Kelemen, 1999; Kelemen & DiYanni, 2005)." Teleology is a philosophical concept but it is indicative of a belief in higher order. He is against higher order since he's an atheist, this is his ideological bias.[12]



His methodology is based upon students answering surveys. two samples test for replicability, robustness, and generalizability. Sample 1: 492 undergraduate psychology students. Sample 2 "consisted of 920 adult Americans collected though Amazon’s Mechanical Turk.;" Surveys completed online. For several concepts such as teleology they had no standardized scale and had to makeup their own. Of course if we suspect bias we can't trust their scales.

......The Conclusion:

Although our cognitive biases remain predictors of purpose above and beyond the variance predicted by belief in God, belief in God remains the strongest predictor. Further, the model no longer passed the test of fit when we reversed this relationship to have belief in purpose lead to belief in God. This suggests that much of the variance in belief in life’s purpose, is coming from belief in God. The remaining relationships with our cognitive biases could be seen as an intuition towards purpose above and beyond what is encouraged by belief in God, or it could be something left over from growing up in a largely Protestant Christian culture. This interesting question could be answered by going beyond a Christian sample. Regardless, it does not seem to be the case that purpose is another sort of intuition that leads to belief in a supernatural power. Rather, belief in God appears to lead to a greater sense that there is a purpose to life[13]



They have made the astounding discovery that belief in God gives one a motivation to believe in a purpose in life. The non belief in God while laden with a sense of purpose is not necessarily transmute into belief by that sense. This is hardly an anti-religious finding. The problem is they way they treat belief and other aspects of reason that support belief. They even include "1.2.4. Mentalizing All of the above cognitive tendencies have a clear common feature: they require some mentalizing ability. There has been some speculation about the relationship between metalizing and religious belief." "mentalizing means imagining, which is necessary for science as well as religion, and for math and any kind of reasoning. They are treating all uses of the mind as though they are some obsolete function developed for life on savanna. The implication being that belief in God just a throw back to primitive brain function: "Regardless, it does not seem to be the case that purpose is another sort of intuition that leads to belief in a supernatural power. Rather, belief in God appears to lead to a greater sense that there is a purpose to life." In other words purpose does not lead to God, but God to a sense of purpose. The sense of purpose is an illusion based upon the primitive nonsense of belief in God.

Williard and A., Norenzayan are valid academics. they have the credentials, their works are published and they work with good people. Norenzayan has published with R.A.McNamara for whom I have the utmost respect.[14] Do not think I'm attacking his credentials. I am attacking his bias. There has come to be a whole industry fueled this this ideological atheism in science. Nor am I advocating policing science. I am totally for academic freedom. The only thing we can do is get more Christians to study social science.


....



Sources


[1] magical thinking study

Willard is Post doctoral fellow at UT Austin, psychology, received her Ph.D. in Psychology university of British Columbia. She primarily works with Hindu and Muslims. Ara Norenzayan is a graduate student, he is at University British Columbia.


[2] Michiel Elk, Bastiaan T. Rutjens, Joop van der Pligt,& Frenk van Harrveled (2016) Priming of Supernatural agent concepts and agency detection, Religion, Brain and Behavior, 6:1, 4-33, DOL: 10.1080/2153599X.2014.93344

[3] Ibid., 4


[4] Ibid., 5.

[5] Ibid., 5. A.K. Willard and A. Norenzayan, “Cognative Biases Explain Religious Belief and belief in life's purpose,” Cognition 129 (2013), 379-391. T. Reikki, M.Litterman, et. al. “Paranormal and religious believers are more prone to illusary face perception than skeptics and none believers.” applied cognitive psychology 27 (2013) 150-155, and R. Petrican and C.T. Burris, “Am I a Stone? Over attribution of agency and Religious Orientation,” Religion and Spirituality 4 (2012), 312-323.

[6] Ibid., 6. J. Bulbulia, “The Cognitive and Evolutionary Psychology of Religion,” Biology and Philosophy 19, (2004) 655-686, A. Lisdorf, “What's HIDD'n in the HADD,” Journal of Cognition and Culture 7, (2007), 341-353, and R. McKay and C. Efferson, “Subtitles of Error Management,” Evolution and Human Behavior, 31 (5)(2010) 309-319.


[7] Aiyana K. Willard Ara Norenzayan , "Cognitive biases explain religious belief, paranormal belief, and belief in life’s purpose."   Cognition, published by Science dorect, 1 article info Article history: Received 4 March 2013 Revised 25 July 2013 Accepted 27 July 2013 Online PDF format, URL:
http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~ara/Manuscripts/Willard_Norenzayan_Cognitive_Biases.pdf

[8]

[9]

[10]\

[11]
[12]

[13]


 [14] McNamara, R. A., Norenzayan, A., & Henrich, J. (2016). Supernatural punishment, in-group biases, and material insecurity: Experiments and ethnography from Yasawa, Fiji. Religion, Brain & Behavior6, 34-55.pdf

Monday, December 9, 2013

Classic Exchange on Existence of God, "Big Thinker" Deserves Big Reality

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Originally Posted by bigthinker View Post
I don't think you understand what evidence is.
Meta:
I understand that the atheist brain washers have created a standard of evidence that's designed to make belief look bad and to make you feel that atheism = scinece, when in fact it's really anti-scientific. thus when you have 200 empirical studies form peer reviewed journals telling you something you just decide they are all bad without reading one of them--horribly unscientific!

you don't know what evidence is. You have reduced all forms of evidence to just the ones that help your view. that's the big atheist trick with evdience and facts.

bigthinker
You have not presented evidence of the existence of God
Meta:
yea I have. you have not answered any of it. I showed three issues.


I beat the fu out of you on the 200 studies on the Cosmological arguemnt. you are just calmed up as though you said "I refuse to accept that this is meaningful. I will not bleieve regardless of the evidence."





 
 
bigthinker

The 200 studies deal with belief, not the existence of God. No one is questioning if people believe in God.
They don't deal with Belief they deal with experience. the experience of God. Of course that's what the argument is about so I don't base my argument on that premise. I'm arguing for the validity of the statement. They data from the studies suggest its' right.

bigthinker
You say that because your God is imaginary.
Is expecting gravity to hold you on earth an absurd level of evidence for gravity? 
Meta
you have made up that god is imaginary I disproved that nonsense slogan on several occasions. you just refused to look at the logic. The concept of God is that of a reality. So the concept is not imaginary like Superman is imaginary. We have a dispute about reality like any such dispute, such as wave particle, or steady state vs. big bang and so on.

the scientists who supported steady state did not call big bang "imaginary" just becuase they thought it was unreal. you are just using that term to make it sound worse.

bigthinker
The difference between sub atomic particles and your God is that sub atomic particles are objectively detectable; their presence or absence can be factually determined. Your God cannot.
Meta
they are not actually. that's why we don't have direct pictures of them. they are only detectable by judging their effects upon other particles and that's exactly the case with God.


bigthinker
Because there is no evidence that God exists any other way. And all the evidence (your studies, for example) indicate that God is imaginary. 

Meta
that's obviously an exaggerated statement. nothing about the 200 studies that makes God seem imaginary. The 200 studies make God seem real. So that's obviously a false statement. Since that's not the case then I do have evidence:

*200 studies

*can't get soemthing form nothing

*effect of God talk on the brain

*temporal beginning argument.


you can't answer any of them.

Of course not, you are blinded by your bias.

bigthinker
I say you are imagining it. But it doesn't matter because you can't demonstrate that you aren't merely imagining it. 

Meta
Yes, even Andrew Newberg says that the God n the brain stuff proves there is soemthing, it's not just imagination. the 200 studies prove because the effects are real and they are measurable.

you are just begging the question again.


bigthinker
First of all, I have zero evidence that your life changed -personal claims are not evidence.
Meta
yes they are evidence they are well documented the 200 studies document them. most of the 200 have some form of documentation that backs that arguemnt.

bigthinker
Second, there is no evidence that the cause of your change was God.
This is circular. 

Meta
as much evdience smoking causes cancer and it's of the same nature.
[this means it's a correlation but a tight one.]


bigthinker
Talk about God -or imagining God talking to you is not the same as the existence of God. You are confusing the two. 

Meta
I never said anything about God talking to me. I said explicitly mystical experience is not about God talking to you.


bigthinker
Show me a timeless void. 

Meta
you guys will never learn. you have to support the timeless void. the only alternative to that is eternal necessary being and that's God. If you don't accept a timeless void you already accept the basic conditions that prove God must exist.

bigthinker
It would require a greater re-write of the rules for your God to exist. 

Meta
it wouldn't require any becuase God doesn't exist by rules. God makes the rules he's not the result rules.

there are physical laws at that point (beyond singularity) to say no this or that. It's no good trying to say God doesn't measure up to the rules he doesn't have to.

bigthinker
its imaginary. There is no evidence that your god is not imaginary.

Meta
I just gave you some
Holy Question begging Batman! that's exactly what the word means. Perfect example!


bigthinker
Those aren't even arguments for the existence of God...They are examples of question begging and circular reasoning. 

He says that right after his own question begging where he demands that God is imaginary and taht I've given no evdience right after I game some.

Meta
prove it. show me they are. your arguemnts are always question begging. you show me how this is question begging.


bigthinker
Meta, I'm not insulted by your incorrect assertions and interpretations of reality.

Meta
I'm not trying to insult you. I do actually like you.

bigthinker
Except that God IS imaginary. You imagine God. 

Meta
prove it. so far you have not answered a single argument. again you don't understated what begging the question is. you are asserting that all the stuff I point to as evdience has to be not evdience because you assert the begging of the question. you are making your conclusion into your premise. that's circular reasoning. Question begging is a from of circular reasoning.

bigthinker
And you have zero evidence that God is not imaginary, in fact, all of your studies and all your so-called arguments support my position.

Meta
I don't have to prove Go dis not imaginary. you made the claim you must prove he is. I have no reasons to think he is. I have reason to think he's real and you can't answer them.


bigthinker
existence is not determined by argument, existence is determined by evidence.

Meta 
argument discloses truth. Discovering subatomic particles didn't make the particles happen because they argued for them. the arguments helped them make the discovery.


 Originally Posted by bigthinker View Post
On the contrary, you are the one who denies the reality of God while I embrace it. God is an idea that you have. There is no evidence to the contrary.
Meta
you dont' even know what the idea of God is. It's not that of an imaginary anything. Its' of a real thing.. that's just proof that you are begging you can't even admit that we actually believe soemthing that we do believe.

my idea of the old South land life building that used to Grace the Dallas sky line is not that of an imaginary building it's the idea of real building that used to exit. It may still but you can't see it from a distance anymore. My idea of Superman is that of a being that I know is fictional. It's the idea of real being of cousre, but I know it's factional so the overarching idea of it is not that of a real being but of a fictional being. The immediate suspended disbelief idea is of a real super powered hero but the uber idea is that of a fictional character.


bigthinker
Your 200 studies don't deal with God, they deal with what people think.
The soul is imaginary. It doesn't have a cost beyond your emotional attachment to the idea.

Meta
sure, that's the co determinate. that's like saying 'these so called fingerprint things are not the actual fingers of the criminal they only represent places where the criminal touched, therefore, there is no criminal."



 Originally Posted by bigthinker View Post
I admit that you believe something. I admit that you have an idea of God. What you do not seem to have is the God itself. And you don't acknowledge the difference between the thing and the idea of the thing.

Meta
Of course I do. you are begging the question. I see that the presence I feel when I pray and the doing of the effect when my prayers are answered; the doer of the deeds I speak of in my arguments. there has to be one. you just say "that can't be God because he's not real." that's begging the question.

bigthinker
You have a memory of something that actually existed. Your memory is the idea. The thing (the building) no longer exists -although it once existed. The existence of the building was not contingent upon your idea of it, it existed independently from your imagination and was objectively detectable by others -even by others who could not see it, didn't have an idea of it etc.

Meta
God is not contingent upon my idea of him. If he was I could not have been saved because I had no idea of God. I was an atheist.
see how he's begging the question? He's asserting that point that he defends in order to use it as evidence in its own defense. He assumes the idea of God is contingent upon my imagining it without even having a way to know that. Irony of ironies look what he says next!


bigthinker
How is that different from me knowing that your God is fictional?


Meta
you don't know it you are begging the question. I know God is real because I see the co-determinate.
(Duh!)

bigthinker
Superman is an idea, just as god is an idea. The building you remember may have actually existed -or perhaps it still does. The building existed as more than just an idea -whereas Superman and God exist only as ideas.

Meta
this obviously question begging. you dogmatically assert that God si in the category with superman. for me he's not. YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE THAT GOD IS JUST AN IDEA. YOU HAVE NO WAY TO KNOW THAT. YOU ASSUME IT, THAT'S QUESTION BEGGING! THAT'S WHAT QUESTION BEGGING IS!!!!
I couldn't make this more obvious if I invented it myself.


bigthinker
The difference is that fingerprints actually exist -they are (actual) evidence of a person. You are using imaginary evidence to support your belief in an imaginary character.


Meta
the effects of God exits. the effects of having the experiences, the experiences themselves. the temporal conditions in the temperate arguemnt all of hat stuff exits. the presence I feel exists it's real. It's something I feel.

bigthinker
Try to find real evidence -something other people can objectively investigate.

Meta
The God on the brain thing is objective. In Sagons movie why didn't they say "well there's a mathematical code in DNA that tells us how to open a worm hole but it cant' be alisen it's a coincidence?" Same deal. we have a signal written into our DNA when we hear God talk about brains light up. When we sense God's presence our lives are fixed up.

that' real it's objective. with the ability to distinguish between fake and real mystical experience the M scales gives us an objectivity in studying the effects of God.