Have we past the piont of no return?

Kant


Garbage on CARM. 12/16/10

I laid out a nice little overview of some major reason for belief, in answer to another thread that was too long. Three categories, origins, ethics, and existentialism. Cosmological argument, the need to ground axioms in something not relative and the need for meaning. These are the kind inane mock carp the ignorant denizens of the hate group spit back. These answers really demonstrate the bankruptcy of atheism, out education system, and the barbarism tat is overtaking civilization.

Ben The Biased.

don't agree that it actually means anything to "ground moral axioms," or that the categories of "necessary" and "contingent" are meaningful in any way, or that "self actualization" is a meaningful or measurable quality, so I don't find any of your arguments or challenges meaningful or useful in any way.

This is just extremely stupid stuff. Grounding ethics axioms means nothing more or less than showing the reasons why the axioms chosen are valid. Axioms can be grounded in logic, or tradition, or science (empirical data) or almost anything. One could ground them in supersition. It's really just another way of say "show a reason." To say they don't need to be grounded is to say we don't reasons for doing things. Ethical axioms stem form values of cousre. Values are not easily pinned down. Yet most would agree that we chose our ethical values for more important reasons than mere taste or out of anger or for reason more valid than mere bigotry. So what he's actually saying is we don't need ethics. We don't' need to worry about being ethical. Either or that or he's saying valuing a choice based upon hatred, bigorty, superstion, stupidity, or indifference is just as good as having a valid reason.

Atheist usually ground their ethical axioms in one of three things (or all three):

(1) feelings

(2) genetics

(3) social constract

These are the three reasons usually given for an action to be ethical according to most atheists. Atheists tend to use teleological reasoning, so they think it's the out come that makes it ethical. Outcome, however, requires a value to choose the outcome that suits us. That is not an excuse to get away from grounding. These three aspects are problematic:

(1) feelings:

Not that they aren't valid but they don't furnish a grounding. They work better as indications of some deeper justification such as innate ideas, divine origin, or genetics some such idea. The reason is because feelings change, there are competing feelings, people who don't have the feelings, and if you are a materialist you can't really demonstrable why feelings matter. These guys are willing to throw away a thousand year long tradition in ethical theory and just we don't need reasons.

(2) genetics

Genes can't be moral. The moral dimension is decision making, it requires free will. So we can't have a situation where what one should do is based upon genetic structure, because that's not Dennison making. This is a violation of what is called "Hume's fork." Hume said you can't derive an out from an is. Just saying there's a genetic tendency doesn't tell us why it's moral. If we discord the moral category we are just throwing away a rational harmonious peaceful society and clearing the way for might makes right.

(3) social contract

That was great as a counter to divine right of kings. What do you when the society is racist? Or what do you are in Nazi German or some such place where the social contract requires doing thing that in other contexts are extremely unethical? What seems liberating in one context can be oppressive in another. That's the flaw of relativism.

More wisdom from Ben the idiot:

However, let's assume that you are entirely correct on all three of these points. The question then would be, what difference does it make? What is all of this supposed to convince me of? None of it works in any way as evidence that God exists.

Of cousre it does, he's just ignoring how it works. I did say at the outset, as I always do, that I'm not offer proof (in fact the original thread didn't ask for proof but for 'reasons to believe') I am presenting rational warrant for belief.

That people find God best "grounds" their moral axioms doesn't mean he exists.

It's a good reason to assume so. There's also more to it than that. There's a dilemma. We feel deeply about certain actions that they are right or wrong, laudable or outrages against humanity, but there's no way to ground the choice in the feeling. The feeling works better as an indication of a higher truth. That higher truth points to the divine.

That he is the only explanation their limited minds can imagine for the origin of the universe doesn't mean he exists. That belief in him makes them "self-actualized" doesn't mean he exists.

It's a good reason t think he does since it's the content of the experience and it's Demosthenes emphatically in the outcome. That he is the only expatiation is a fine reason to believe. What kind of statement is that? that shows me that he doesn't care what's true and what is not. He's not searching for reasons he's just stuck on refusing. He wants to ask "why do people believe"then when you tell him the can't stand the fact that we do have reasons. If the explanation, God being the only one that works, is not a good enough reason then why have scinece? That's the basis of scientific belief isn't it?

I challenged them in my post to provide an alternative and they didn't brother. They just assert that they have one, but what is it? Then he's asserting that I'm stupid because I don't automatically assume that there is alternative but showing me one is his job, because that was my challenge.

So...what exactly are these arguments accomplishing? Is it just to say that I'd have a more coherent belief system and better well-being if I believed in God?

They are answering the original thread.

Even if I agreed with that (which I don't), I can't just choose to believe in God. I don't find the evidence of God's existence remotely persuasive, so I can't choose to believe in him any more than I could choose to believe that I have a million dollars in my bank account. I must be persuaded to believe. I can't make it happen. No matter how much you say my life would be better if I believed there was a million dollars in my bank account, I just can't believe it. Same goes for God.

what has he actually said here? he's actuality agreed with an observation I made once about the demand of atheist to be conquered. They don't' rational thinking, they don't want to deliberate, they are lazy. they want to be forced. that's a pretty unfair burden. They don't up in any effort to disprove God all they do is make people feel insutled and ridiculed for believing. They never actually try. Well some do there are argumetns against God but they are usualy piss poor. I've seen one that's any good except as a reason move on form fundamentalism to liberal theology.

What he's really saying is "I refuse to reason." What I have said on this blog before about the only argument atheists have? when you boil it down all they really have is the refusal to believe. What he's saying is no matter how good a reason to believe he will not give it any credence until it produce absolute proof that he can't argue with. He said :" No matter how much you say my life would be better if I believed there was a million dollars in my bank account, I just can't believe it. Same goes for God. " Translation: I refuse to believe so that proves it's not true. That is what I have called their one and only argument. After all if there's no valid origin we have to one or we wouldn't be here, if God is the only one that's a fine reason to think there's a God. A fine reason is not good enough for him. That would be ok with me if he was willing to just let those who accept it be. He is not. He is one of the cruelest mocking ridicule artists on CARM> so he's really saying Unless you have absolute proof you are an idiot to believe something. Of course he has no absolute proof. He has nothing more than refusal.

Here's what more of them said.

Bust Na

I am interested in this one:

Originally Posted by Metacrock

B. infinite causal regress this is a problem in logic becuase it's basically circular reasoning. Another problem with it fits into the next argument.

It's not circular, it's clearly linear and un-bounded.

challenge: the atheist cant' produce a suitable origin theory that is not based upon arbitrary necessity.

What's wrong with just saying origin is based upon contingencies?

What he' saying here is so stupid it could be a feature attraction on a hypothetical tv show called "stupid atheist tricks." He is confussing the nature of the chian of cause and effect in the ICR (infinite causal regress) with the logic that is used to support it. Just the concept of the ICR is that of a linear prgression of cause and effect doesn' mean the logic used to put it over is linear. I contend it's put in place by circular reasoning becuase you just attempt to explain each couplet of c=>e with itself as the basis for the next one. With no beginning there's never a point where you have a cause for the causes. I also argue that this is arbitrary necessity it's just putting a string of contingencies in place of necessity for no other reason than to avoid a God argument. That's what really get's me about it. there is no good reason for assuming ICR other than that one doesn't want to believe in final cause, since final cause = God. It's like cheating. It's saying "I refuse to believe so that proves it's not true, and if it is true I will still pretend it's not." see my arguments against ICR.

Super Genyus says:Frankly, I'm sick of hearing about mystical experiences from you, so I didn't continue. I think we've exhausted that debate. I'm just going to say that they are completely compatible with a naturalistic framework. And, before you comment on that, look up the definition of compatible.

This guy is usually one of the brightest of the carm atheist. He's probably is just sick of me always talking about 200 studies and mystical experiencing. It's the answer it proves it. I really should start using Lofuts' approach and just say "read my book." I have to get the book out there first. This is as very alarming thing to see becasue one of the bright actually refusing to look at the evidence. That just reinforces the whole notion of dumder heads refusing to think, I wont look through the telescope becuase it's a trick and so on.

This next guy is not one of the bright ones:

Originally Posted by Magritte

His categorical imperative is categorically retarded. Who can come up with a practical moral system? Immanuel can't.\

Brilliant hu? He's putting down Kant to slap me in the face. Not a helpful attitude to discussion. That's the point. The atheists aer really through with the time for intellectual discussion. They not past the point where they are wiling to consider ideas. They lost every time they tired. They are hyped on hate and ready to hurt Christians and so they are not going to try to reason anymore.

Originally Posted by Magritte

Then no amount of screeching and obfuscation will change the fact that we are ultimately responsible for choosing, preferring, judging. We cannot shrug off responsibility onto God, or Nature, or "a system". We have to man up and face the fact that we are the creators of our tables of values.

He's willing sweep aside one of the most brilliant minds in human history. He's clearly no student of ethics to believe it's impossible to make an ethical system, so he's probably never even read Kant.. What about the fact that they say that? Because they can't make it work without God it's impossible to make it work at all! That's a new one. It's very dangerous beause it's just saying "let's give up on morality.

Look at his little childish "man up" crap. First of all his argument is insane because to pretend that belief in God is putting responsibility on God for morality is stupid. Nothing could be more idiotic. Its' putting responsibility on us. God is not the moral actor we are! God requires the responsibility of us. Without no God we have no reason to act responsibly. He's really making the ultimate excuse to not have to be moral.

It appears we have passed the point of no return Atheists are no longer willing to reason or discussion in a civilized manner. They couldn't care less about truth, they refuse to believe that's all there is. They are also wiling to mock and ridicule anyone who disagrees with their arbitrarily predilections and they going to continue to undermine the social fabric. I am hoping this only applies to an extreme end, maybe the Dawkamentalists. I can't imagine hermit saying he's done with trying to be moral.

BTW my brother and I thought "Kant can't" was cleaver in seventh grade.I remember Madyline Murry O'airhead syaing that Kant was the best proof of atheism.

Atheism and The Twelve Stage Model of Hate groups

When first I launched Atheist Watch I brought out the seven stage model of hate group development used by the FBI. Now I trun to the first four stages, and I feel this is where hate group atheism (Dawkamentalists) are today:


The seven-stage hate model: The psychopathology of hate groups
FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin/March 1, 2003
By John R. Schafer, MA and Joe Navarro, MA

Stage 1: The Haters Gather

Irrational haters seldom hate alone.10 They feel compelled, almost driven, to entreat others to hate asthey do. Peer validation bolsters a sense of self-worth and, at the same time, prevents introspection, which reveals personal insecurities.11 Further, individuals otherwise ineffective become empowered when they join groups, which also provide anonymity and diminished accountability.
Stage 2: The Hate Group Defines Itself

Hate groups form identities through symbols, rituals, and mythologies, which enhance the members' status and, at the same time, degrade the object of their hate. For example, skinhead groups may adopt the swastika, the iron cross, the Confederate flag, and other supremacist symbols. Group-specific symbols or clothing often differentiate hate groups. Group rituals, such as hand signals and secret greetings, further fortify members. Hate groups, especially skinhead groups, usually incorporate some form of self-sacrifice, which allows haters to willingly jeopardize their well-being for the greater good of the cause. Giving one's life to a cause provides the ultimate sense of value and worth to life.12 Skinheads often see themselves as soldiers in a race war.
Stage 3: The Hate Group Disparages the Target

Hate is the glue that binds haters to one another and to a common cause.13 By verbally debasing the object of their hate, haters enhance their self-image, as well as their group status. In skinhead groups, racist song lyrics and hate literature provide an environment wherein hate flourishes. In fact, researchers have found that the life span of aggressive impulses increases with ideation.14 In other words, the more often a person thinks about aggression, the greater the chance for aggressive behavior to occur. Thus, after constant verbal denigration, haters progress to the next more acrimonious stage.
Stage 4: The Hate Group Taunts the Target

Hate, by its nature, changes incrementally. Time cools the fire of hate, thus forcing the hater to look inward. To avoid introspection, haters use ever-increasing degrees of rhetoric and violence to maintain high levels of agitation. Taunts and offensive gestures serve this purpose. In this stage, skinheads typically shout racial slurs from moving cars or from afar. Nazi salutes and other hand signals often accompany racial epithets. Racist graffiti also begins to appear in areas where skinheads loiter. Most skinhead groups claim turf proximate to the neighborhoods in which they live. One study indicated that a majority of hate crimes occur when the hate target migrates through the hate group's turf.15

This is where we are now. The hate group has gathered and begun to taut the target. to avoid the cooling off of introspection they single out the symbols of their hate to attack.



NCJRS abstracts

In the second stage, the haters form an identity by using symbols, rituals, and mythology. During the third stage, the haters begin to verbally degrade the object of their hatred, thereby bolstering their self-image as a group. In the fourth stage, in order to maintain high levels of agitation and avoid introspection, the group begins to taunt its target, usually through the use of offensive gestures and racial slurs.

This is what happens on message boards every night on the internet.

Wikiepdia article on hate groups

Hate groups usually assert that the targets of their attacks are harmful to society. Hate groups generally propagate myths, narratives and rumours, playing upon fear, xenophobia, blame or jealousy, with the aim of harming individuals and groups they target, and inciting others to distrust or hate them. The ultimate aim of a hate group is commonly the delegitimization, elimination, and exclusion of groups, or the harm, deportation, or death of individuals. Hate groups often use their victims as scapegoats.

We see this on the net every night, every atheist message board is dominated by the charges that Hitler was a Christian, Christianity is bad for society, God ordered the wiping out of various people', the bogus social science studies like the Zuckerman pretend study that claims "atheist societies" are so much better than religious ones. And now we see the atheists attacking the symbol of their object of hatred, Christmas. A sign was put up at a radio station by atheists trying to destory the beuaty of Christmas. It was placed beside a nativity scene and it said the nativity scene was a myth. This is documented on Cnn.com/living "Missing Atheist Sign Found."

(CNN) -- An atheist sign criticizing Christianity that was erected alongside a Nativity scene was taken from the Legislative Building in Olympia, Washington, on Friday and later found in a ditch.
The Freedom from Religion Foundation had a placard up in the Legislative Building in Olympia, Washington.

The Freedom from Religion Foundation had a placard up in the Legislative Building in Olympia, Washington.
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An employee from country radio station KMPS-FM in Seattle told CNN the sign was dropped off at the station by someone who found it in a ditch.

"I thought it would be safe," Freedom From Religion Foundation co-founder Annie Laurie Gaylor told CNN earlier Friday. "It's always a shock when your sign is censored or stolen or mutilated. It's not something you get used to."

The sign, which celebrates the winter solstice, has had some residents and Christian organizations calling atheists Scrooges because they said it was attacking the celebration of Jesus Christ's birth.

"Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds," the sign from the Freedom From Religion Foundation says in part.

The sign, which was at the Legislative Building at 6:30 a.m. PT, was gone by 7:30 a.m., Gaylor said.

The incident will not stifle the group's message, Gaylor said. Before reports of the placard's recovery, she said a temporary sign with the same message would be placed in the building's Rotunda. Gaylor said a note would be attached saying, "Thou shalt not steal."
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* iReport.com: Over-the-top holiday displays?

"I guess they don't follow their own commandments," Gaylor said. "There's nothing out there with the atheist point of view, and now there is such a firestorm that we have the audacity to exist. And then [whoever took the sign] stifles our speech."

Gaylor said that police are checking security cameras pointed at the building's entrances and exits to see if they can see anyone stealing the sign.

"It's probably about 50 pounds, " Gaylor said. "My brother-in-law was huffing and puffing carrying it up the stairs. It's definitely not something you can stick under your arm or conceal."

The Washington State Patrol, which is handling the incident, could not be reached for comment.

Dan Barker, a former evangelical preacher and co-founder of the group, said it was important for atheists to see their viewpoints validated alongside everyone else's.

Barker said the display is especially important given that 25 percent of Washington state residents are unaffiliated with religion or do not believe in God. (A recent survey by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found 23 percent of Washingtonians said they were unaffiliated with a religion and 7 percent said they didn't believe in God.)

Atheists on message boards have said things like "O those evil nasty Christians destroying our poor little sign." But it doesn't dawn on them the sign is an act of hate because it says "you are not allowed to exist in the public square with me. I will not allow you to have your beliefs." Who the hell would get upset at Christmas? They are attacking love, peace, happiness, good toward men. But the reason is because the symbol of the hated target becomes a target for hate. This incident points up a full scale attack on Christmas that has been growing over the years. The symbol of faith as become the target of hate for those who despise faith.

from the same CNN article

"Most people think December is for Christians and view our signs as an intrusion, when actually it's the other way around," he said. "People have been celebrating the winter solstice long before Christmas. We see Christianity as the intruder, trying to steal the holiday from all of us humans."

The scene in Washington state is not unfamiliar. Barker has had signs in Madison, Wisconsin, for 13 years. The placard is often turned around so the message can't be seen, and one year, someone threw acid on it, forcing the group to encase it in Plexiglas.

In Washington, D.C., the American Humanist Association began a bus ad campaign this month questioning belief in God.

"Why believe in a God?" the advertisement asks. "Just be good for goodness sake."

That ad has caused the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority to field hundreds of complaints, the group said, but it has heard just as much positive feedback, said Fred Edwords, the association's spokesman.

Edwords said the ad campaign, which features a shrugging Santa Claus, was not meant to attack Christmas but rather to reach out to an untapped audience.

Edwords maintains the campaign began in December mostly because the group had extra money left over for the year. The connection to Christmas is a coincidence, he said.

"There are a lot of people out there who don't know there are organizations like ours to serve their needs," Edwords said. "The thing is, to reach a minority group, in order to be heard, everyone in the room has to hear you, even when they don't want to."

The ad campaign, Edwords said, is to make people think. He said he doesn't expect to "convert" anyone.

But the Christian Coalition of America is urging members to oppose the advertisements.

"Although a number of humanists and atheists continue to attempt to rid God and Christmas from the public square, the American people are overwhelmingly opposed to such efforts," Roberta Combs, the group's president said in a press release.

"We will ask our millions of supporters to call the city of Washington, D.C., and Congress to stop this un-Godly campaign."

Within this year there were a handful of incidence of hate group vandalism to churches in Dallas and East Texas that may have involved atheists. Two of the perpetrators were reading atheist books, and one of the cases of vandalism used atheist slogans.